Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)

763 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 25/06/2026 16:02

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5031904-the-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued
TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

The hearing is in Leeds; the number of online observers has been limited by the court due to "capacity" and posters are reporting that requests for links are being declined on those grounds.

Also to note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
NowSober · 27/06/2026 14:56

JustTryingToBeMe · 27/06/2026 14:42

do funding sources not have to be declared? Will it be a matter of public record in their accounts? I wonder whether they should when the money comes from a group (ie union) whose members have not given permission for their subs to be used in that manner. I would be fuming.

Funding sources do not have to be declared. Jane Russell tried to trick Sandie Peggie into revealing her financial backer under cross-examination. Sources of funding are a matter for the participants & their respective legal teams & nobody else.

SqueakyDinosaur · 27/06/2026 15:03

Given that our side gets accused of being funded by the American right wing, maybe ST is being funded by AOC and Bernie Sanders?

MyAmpleSheep · 27/06/2026 15:09

SqueakyDinosaur · 27/06/2026 15:03

Given that our side gets accused of being funded by the American right wing, maybe ST is being funded by AOC and Bernie Sanders?

No, it’s left wing to spend only other people’s money, not your own.

ProfessorBinturong · 27/06/2026 15:17

CriticalCondition · 27/06/2026 12:23

Yes, that opening statement from Naomi is a cracker of a read.

I've been musing about the funding of C's case. It's not crowdfunded, C appears to be of modest means and although he mentions debt in his witness statement I don't get the impression he's remortgaged his house to fund this. I'm sure he'd have made a huge deal of it if he had.

A KC, even a regional rather than a London one, does not come cheap. It's a very long 3 week hearing. The bill will be huge. Never mind the legal fees run up over the last two years. There is somebody or some body with very deep pockets behind this.

If I were a member of a union I would be outraged if this is what my subs were being spent on.

Edited for clarity.

Edited

Most unions will only take a case to tribunal if there's a very high chance of winning. And even then I'm not sure they'd fund a KC.

SinnerBoy · 27/06/2026 15:21

myladydisdainisyetliving · 26/06/2026 12:00

From TT: MN now being discussed and a post by @Sinnerboy !

Good or bad? I cannot find it with different search terms. Someone posted that id upset someone, on a different thread, but cannot find that, either!

...edit

I've seen following posts quoting TT. Does anyone know what I wrote?

NowSober · 27/06/2026 15:27

ProfessorBinturong · 27/06/2026 15:17

Most unions will only take a case to tribunal if there's a very high chance of winning. And even then I'm not sure they'd fund a KC.

ST's barrister is Helen Hogben who is not a KC but is a very experienced employment lawyer. She is also like ST based in the North East so perhaps the fact that she is local is a factor in his choice of barrister.

https://www.trinitychambers.co.uk/barristers/helen-hogben/

Helen Hogben - Trinity Chambers

https://www.trinitychambers.co.uk/barristers/helen-hogben

BendoftheBeginning · 27/06/2026 15:31

KnottyAuty · 27/06/2026 08:49

Im very sad to say that Ive slowly come to this view too. If you look at the Post Office, HSE, Citizens Advice, Environment Agency, Planning Enforcement, Trading Standards, now DEFRA it seems, all of these institutions had a respected history in my mind. However we then get a glimpse behind the curtain and discover that it’s like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. They exist but dont actually seem to be fit for purpose anymore. All smoke and mirrors. Lots of people with busy-work serving their own jobs but completely failing to provide the actual service which is the purpose of their organisation. And in many cases - worse - running interference on anyone who tries to hold them to account to do their actual job. Through this tribunal and others we hear about the absolute nonsense and time wasting that goes on which we are all paying for! Staff social networks with inbox notifications?!? WTAF? How on earth is all this distraction permitted and funded in the workplace?! It’s a disgrace. Continuing on with the pretence that the organisations are doing their jobs is toxic. Maybe the employees all know this and that’s why so many also slip so easily into the self delusion of trans fantasyland. It’s maybe the canary in the coal mine of the intellectual rot across the entire public sector.

yes sorry im obviously having a bad day

Speaking from the front lines of the IT consulting sector, “social staff networks with inbox notifications” are part of nearly all modern workplaces, not just the public sector.

I regularly work both public and private sector projects and while I can be pretty harsh on a few civil servants I’ve worked with, I’ve also worked with some who are really dedicated, hardworking and genuinely motivated by public service. And to balance that, I’ve worked with talented go-getters in the private sector but also some absolute psychopaths who would gleefully sell their own grandmothers to get a leg up the ladder.

CriticalCondition · 27/06/2026 15:35

Ah, TT have referred to her in their list of abbreviations as a KC. That's where I got it from. Perhaps @Justabaker could draw it to someone one's attention and get it amended.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2026 15:43

SinnerBoy · 27/06/2026 15:21

Good or bad? I cannot find it with different search terms. Someone posted that id upset someone, on a different thread, but cannot find that, either!

...edit

I've seen following posts quoting TT. Does anyone know what I wrote?

Edited

Someone linked the thread they appear to be referring to on Thurs evening, your posts are July 2023 by the looks of it. I’m not sure why they’ve singled you out, you’re quite clear you don’t work for the CS.

KnottyAuty · 27/06/2026 16:40

Speaking of legal counsel - wasnt this the case where Jane Russell had been appointed to represent the GC side alongside NC?

Propertylover · 27/06/2026 16:44

KnottyAuty · 27/06/2026 16:40

Speaking of legal counsel - wasnt this the case where Jane Russell had been appointed to represent the GC side alongside NC?

My memory is there were 2 claimants ST and an anonymous claimant. The anonymous claimant settled, I think JR was representing the Anonymous claimant.

I could be wrong.

ProfLargofesse · 27/06/2026 16:44

Some helpful Mumsnetter posted the quote from relevant paragraphs from the Bench Book earlier in the threads and I'm beginning to develop a theory. Apologies for the lenghty post but its burning up my brain and I need to download and share!

I think the J will have had some Stonewall induced training within the last decade. He probably didn't pay too much attention but has become used to certain trans activist-enforced behaviour in the work-place, and through discussions with family and colleagues. He hasn't thought about things too much since, and certainly not at all from the perspective of women, and he accepts uncritically the 'be kind' instruction as it seems reasonable to him, and he is trained to find the reasonable position.

I think he takes pride in his professionalism and so reviewed the guidance in the Bench Book but then he didn't apply any critical thinking to it. Instead, he took its surface message as a need to be kind to transwomen witnesses. Again, he did not think about it from the women's perspective and did not think about sex accurate pronouns being a necessary aspect of the case before him now because there are no allegations of rape or sexual harassment. Ie he only gave the guidance a surface read.

I think Judges gossip like everyone else in the world and NC kicking arse will not being going down well. Not only is she kicking J arse regularly but she is winning regularly. Not only is she kicking J arse regularly and winning regularly she will go to appeal if the J needs his/ her arse kicked further. I think he has taken agin her because he is a misogynist at heart (but doesn't think he is) and thinks she's a bisim (Scottish term) and he has been influenced by backroom gossip. He will have laughed with colleagues about the introduction of the imaginary Pete. He will have paid attention to the furore around Kemp and has persuaded himself that the women need taking down a peg or two and he is the man to do it. He will be congratulating himself that he will be better than Kemp.

He doesn't see why there is any reasonable position against 'just be kind'.

By asking for his reasons for the gender neutral language instruction, NC is putting him on notice that she is preparing to kick his arse.

He didn't think she would kick his arse because he has all the arrogance of a man who has been in charge and not sufficiently questioned...probably ever. It has made him pay a bit more attention because he doesn't want his arse kicked.

He realises he hasn't thought it through sufficiently well, just thought be kind was reasonable, and so has given himself time to re-read the guidance over the weekend and cobble something together that does not admit a fuck-up on his part but which works within the guidance to the degree that NC won't have an opp to kick his arse. There can be no other reasonable explanation for him not to explain his reasons right away and to keep delaying the written instructions NC has requested.

I also think within his original mindset he genuinely believed that women, on the whole, are transphobes (as set out by the TRAS) and that the witness is being generally discriminated against and has come into the case willing to look for proof of some level of harassment.

I think he has been taken aback by the distinction between the poor, confused, ill-treated traumatised snowflake of the WS and the confident, articulate, intelligent and arrogant witness in person. I think he had made an assumption he would be meeting a delicate effeminate man, who had been quite cruelly disregarded, and would have been all sympathy. He had decided this in advance, and it took a while for him to register that ST was actually something very different than he had imagined and there is a significant dissonance between the person and the claims.

I think the J is experienced enough to be realising that he might have been sold a dummy, but it took him a while to get there because the legal clusterfuck around paperwork and disclosure masked it. ST as a witness was hidden behind the chaos and so the J became even more persuaded that this witness needed a gentle and caring hand, something Elspeth wouldn't need because although none of us has seen her WS yet there is no doubt she will come across as rational, intelligent and capable. Very far from the damaged snowflake ST wrote about in his WS and so not requiring the care the J thought ST needed and deserved. That all fed into his decision re gender neutral language.

But after the first day of questioning, I think he became a bit discombobulated by the dissonance between tone of WS and actual ST. It has slowly been dawning on him instead that this is a witness suffering from narcissism and a need for control, that there are deeper issues behind the claims of being trans that are being ignored by the TRA movement – and that the web Stonewall spun has been like a drug he has become addicted to beyond all reason.

DEFRA have countered the coming scrutiny from the off by attempting to ensure ST was given every accommodation he asked for, and more, and has had to be checked by the HR team who are more au fait with actual equalities and the need for balance than many in management roles. They will have been paying attention to the number of ETs won by women and will be trying to play both sides in terms of process. Balance has to be found somewhere and they are not sure how to get rid of the legacies of Stonewall bias and prejudice but what their awareness of scrutiny means is that the J doesn't have an easy place to go in his judgment (lots more to hear yet of course).

He can't just avoid the credibility issue of ST by laying his judgment at the door of a failure of process. I suspect that was why he was so keen to know if ST had asked for a further appeal rather than an appeal review and been refused. If ST had asked and been refused there would be wriggle room for a judgment around process. ST's answers to his questions also revealed a further lack of credibility with regard to ST (I wouldn't have known the difference/ I did know the difference equation).

I think the J's questions are all about trying to find wriggle room for a judgment around process that will mean he does not have to engage with the issue of sex at all.

I think he completely underestimated the intelligence of Elspeth and NC, nor how committed NC would be to accuracy.

I think he will be spending the weekend thinking how not to get his arse kicked. I don't think he thought he would lay himself open to that in the way he has.

It reminds me of the Sara Morrison case where the panel could not really have anticipated the evidence NC managed to expose around the complaints being made up, for example. No reasonable judge would have anticipated that being at all likely from a well-respected arts organisation. I suspect that ET judge is in a similar quandary: how to protect their own reputation ie how to skirt over many of the ridiculously stupid presumptions (and also Professor anyone?) but also prevent getting emboiled in the debate. I suspect they have also desperately looking to find around process rather than engage with witness credibility. ]

Anyhoo, thanks for the brain dump space in amongst so very many interesting takes and viewpoints.

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 27/06/2026 16:45

I thought Jane Russell was originally due to represent DEFRA?

Hedgehogforshort · 27/06/2026 16:54

Thanks for the link @Propertylover i never read it originally.

starting from the beginning and it is making fascinating reading. I don't think @SinnerBoy said anything bad at the place pin pointed but am going to trawl through the whole thread as it might give more insights, there was any early door deletion, from a whistlingtax possibly ST.

BeMoreBear · 27/06/2026 16:56

ProfLargofesse · 27/06/2026 16:44

Some helpful Mumsnetter posted the quote from relevant paragraphs from the Bench Book earlier in the threads and I'm beginning to develop a theory. Apologies for the lenghty post but its burning up my brain and I need to download and share!

I think the J will have had some Stonewall induced training within the last decade. He probably didn't pay too much attention but has become used to certain trans activist-enforced behaviour in the work-place, and through discussions with family and colleagues. He hasn't thought about things too much since, and certainly not at all from the perspective of women, and he accepts uncritically the 'be kind' instruction as it seems reasonable to him, and he is trained to find the reasonable position.

I think he takes pride in his professionalism and so reviewed the guidance in the Bench Book but then he didn't apply any critical thinking to it. Instead, he took its surface message as a need to be kind to transwomen witnesses. Again, he did not think about it from the women's perspective and did not think about sex accurate pronouns being a necessary aspect of the case before him now because there are no allegations of rape or sexual harassment. Ie he only gave the guidance a surface read.

I think Judges gossip like everyone else in the world and NC kicking arse will not being going down well. Not only is she kicking J arse regularly but she is winning regularly. Not only is she kicking J arse regularly and winning regularly she will go to appeal if the J needs his/ her arse kicked further. I think he has taken agin her because he is a misogynist at heart (but doesn't think he is) and thinks she's a bisim (Scottish term) and he has been influenced by backroom gossip. He will have laughed with colleagues about the introduction of the imaginary Pete. He will have paid attention to the furore around Kemp and has persuaded himself that the women need taking down a peg or two and he is the man to do it. He will be congratulating himself that he will be better than Kemp.

He doesn't see why there is any reasonable position against 'just be kind'.

By asking for his reasons for the gender neutral language instruction, NC is putting him on notice that she is preparing to kick his arse.

He didn't think she would kick his arse because he has all the arrogance of a man who has been in charge and not sufficiently questioned...probably ever. It has made him pay a bit more attention because he doesn't want his arse kicked.

He realises he hasn't thought it through sufficiently well, just thought be kind was reasonable, and so has given himself time to re-read the guidance over the weekend and cobble something together that does not admit a fuck-up on his part but which works within the guidance to the degree that NC won't have an opp to kick his arse. There can be no other reasonable explanation for him not to explain his reasons right away and to keep delaying the written instructions NC has requested.

I also think within his original mindset he genuinely believed that women, on the whole, are transphobes (as set out by the TRAS) and that the witness is being generally discriminated against and has come into the case willing to look for proof of some level of harassment.

I think he has been taken aback by the distinction between the poor, confused, ill-treated traumatised snowflake of the WS and the confident, articulate, intelligent and arrogant witness in person. I think he had made an assumption he would be meeting a delicate effeminate man, who had been quite cruelly disregarded, and would have been all sympathy. He had decided this in advance, and it took a while for him to register that ST was actually something very different than he had imagined and there is a significant dissonance between the person and the claims.

I think the J is experienced enough to be realising that he might have been sold a dummy, but it took him a while to get there because the legal clusterfuck around paperwork and disclosure masked it. ST as a witness was hidden behind the chaos and so the J became even more persuaded that this witness needed a gentle and caring hand, something Elspeth wouldn't need because although none of us has seen her WS yet there is no doubt she will come across as rational, intelligent and capable. Very far from the damaged snowflake ST wrote about in his WS and so not requiring the care the J thought ST needed and deserved. That all fed into his decision re gender neutral language.

But after the first day of questioning, I think he became a bit discombobulated by the dissonance between tone of WS and actual ST. It has slowly been dawning on him instead that this is a witness suffering from narcissism and a need for control, that there are deeper issues behind the claims of being trans that are being ignored by the TRA movement – and that the web Stonewall spun has been like a drug he has become addicted to beyond all reason.

DEFRA have countered the coming scrutiny from the off by attempting to ensure ST was given every accommodation he asked for, and more, and has had to be checked by the HR team who are more au fait with actual equalities and the need for balance than many in management roles. They will have been paying attention to the number of ETs won by women and will be trying to play both sides in terms of process. Balance has to be found somewhere and they are not sure how to get rid of the legacies of Stonewall bias and prejudice but what their awareness of scrutiny means is that the J doesn't have an easy place to go in his judgment (lots more to hear yet of course).

He can't just avoid the credibility issue of ST by laying his judgment at the door of a failure of process. I suspect that was why he was so keen to know if ST had asked for a further appeal rather than an appeal review and been refused. If ST had asked and been refused there would be wriggle room for a judgment around process. ST's answers to his questions also revealed a further lack of credibility with regard to ST (I wouldn't have known the difference/ I did know the difference equation).

I think the J's questions are all about trying to find wriggle room for a judgment around process that will mean he does not have to engage with the issue of sex at all.

I think he completely underestimated the intelligence of Elspeth and NC, nor how committed NC would be to accuracy.

I think he will be spending the weekend thinking how not to get his arse kicked. I don't think he thought he would lay himself open to that in the way he has.

It reminds me of the Sara Morrison case where the panel could not really have anticipated the evidence NC managed to expose around the complaints being made up, for example. No reasonable judge would have anticipated that being at all likely from a well-respected arts organisation. I suspect that ET judge is in a similar quandary: how to protect their own reputation ie how to skirt over many of the ridiculously stupid presumptions (and also Professor anyone?) but also prevent getting emboiled in the debate. I suspect they have also desperately looking to find around process rather than engage with witness credibility. ]

Anyhoo, thanks for the brain dump space in amongst so very many interesting takes and viewpoints.

Reminds me of MN posters who take three days to answer your question and when they do, you get an AI dump of complete bloody nonsense, meant to bowl you over with extreme wordiness.

(NOT your post, but the likelihood that this is what the judge will be striving for this weekend!)

You may be right on the money, if not for this judge, for plenty of others. We've been in the game so long, we can see these things a mile off. So can NC.

RumNotRun · 27/06/2026 16:57

Who is Pete? I've read a couple of references to the imaginary Pete but can't remember the origins

Propertylover · 27/06/2026 17:01

RumNotRun · 27/06/2026 16:57

Who is Pete? I've read a couple of references to the imaginary Pete but can't remember the origins

NC uses a mythical man - Pete, to illustrate how differently a manly man in a female SSS is viewed to a fragrant flowery TW e.g. DrU

Shedmistress · 27/06/2026 17:03

RumNotRun · 27/06/2026 16:57

Who is Pete? I've read a couple of references to the imaginary Pete but can't remember the origins

Imaginary Pete the Plumber who is used as a substitute 'man the in changing rooms' to point out that men who say they are women are no bloody different to any otherr man. He is NC's go to bloke.

I'm in total agreement with getting J to put his money where his mouth is in terms of 'why can't I call this obvious man 'he' judge?'.

Because as we know there is no fucking reason.

lcakethereforeIam · 27/06/2026 17:03

Pete the Plumber, Naomi's hypothetical manly TW.

@SinnerBoy this is the quote I noticed in ST's WS. Just give MN a minute

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)
Mmmnotsure · 27/06/2026 17:07

SinnerBoy · 27/06/2026 15:21

Good or bad? I cannot find it with different search terms. Someone posted that id upset someone, on a different thread, but cannot find that, either!

...edit

I've seen following posts quoting TT. Does anyone know what I wrote?

Edited

@SinnerBoy
I've copied the part from Tribunal Tweets coverage where they refer to ST's witness statement (which is on the TT Substack) mentioning the Mumsnet thread. Curiously, you were the only Mnet poster mentioned - which I find amusing as (I think) you are relatively unusual here in being male. Although your username was mentioned in the proceedings, I don't think it's in the witness statement. It was very much said in passing.

TT coverage from Friday am, second session:

AL To p 545 please. Edd Parry was dealing with your first grievance. You send him additional material and provide a link to a Mumsnet thread. Your Witness Statement [WS] - pp of bundle relating to Mnet thread you rely on is 337.
AL You also cite in your WS p 1542 - Mnet SinnerBoy
AL makes reference to SEEN - is that where we are taken to via the link. Is this showing what you would access if clicked on hyperlink.
C Think so, not certain. Would expect a lot more than 2 entries.
AL These are the refs you give us in your WS
C Yes
AL Hyperlink at 545 and 337
AL Mnet is external website, Rs have no control
C yes, but Defra controls what found on own website
AL Mnet posters are anon
C Whether an individual would be anon if attempts made to id individuals I can't say.
AL 554. Email 1/12 from EP. Reads can't do anything cos nothing specific to Defra and all posts anon. He refers you to whistle blowing process. Correct he can't take this forward.
C I don't strictly agree. If this was a post re farming subsidies there would be attempt to see
if person could be id'd. I feel he could have suggested minimum of blocking this website so can't access via work or look to see if anyone accessing information.
AL Principles of communication were later updated. Restricting references to external websites.
C Links
J You mean
links
AL Yes I do
AL Mnet here is discussing cross-government SEEN, not Defra SEEN.
C Looking at dates, that would be right.

His witness statement is here
drive.google.com/file/d/19X8j5Xls6HtlzzjLIqjjX2jMy6CJhc12/view
Not sure it's easily searchable but the paras that refer to Mnet are
38, 46, 50, 53, 54g, 63g.

Mmmnotsure · 27/06/2026 17:23

@SinnerBoy Adds -
Thinking back, I'm not sure whether there were other Mumsnet usernames mentioned or not, but too late to edit my post.

viques · 27/06/2026 17:30

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 26/06/2026 15:30

... the amount of trouble he's caused within the agency and the wider Department

Or perhaps too much of ST's day is taken up with offense and the fallout from offense to get any actual work done

Or as a poster else thread pointed out, the work trajectory for many women often includes downs as well as ups for many reasons. Pregnancy and maternity leave, time taken out of full time work because childcare is womens work etc etc. It is often carefully orchestrated and manipulated , but women know it happens. Be careful what you wish for ST.

KnottyAuty · 27/06/2026 17:35

ProfLargofesse · 27/06/2026 16:44

Some helpful Mumsnetter posted the quote from relevant paragraphs from the Bench Book earlier in the threads and I'm beginning to develop a theory. Apologies for the lenghty post but its burning up my brain and I need to download and share!

I think the J will have had some Stonewall induced training within the last decade. He probably didn't pay too much attention but has become used to certain trans activist-enforced behaviour in the work-place, and through discussions with family and colleagues. He hasn't thought about things too much since, and certainly not at all from the perspective of women, and he accepts uncritically the 'be kind' instruction as it seems reasonable to him, and he is trained to find the reasonable position.

I think he takes pride in his professionalism and so reviewed the guidance in the Bench Book but then he didn't apply any critical thinking to it. Instead, he took its surface message as a need to be kind to transwomen witnesses. Again, he did not think about it from the women's perspective and did not think about sex accurate pronouns being a necessary aspect of the case before him now because there are no allegations of rape or sexual harassment. Ie he only gave the guidance a surface read.

I think Judges gossip like everyone else in the world and NC kicking arse will not being going down well. Not only is she kicking J arse regularly but she is winning regularly. Not only is she kicking J arse regularly and winning regularly she will go to appeal if the J needs his/ her arse kicked further. I think he has taken agin her because he is a misogynist at heart (but doesn't think he is) and thinks she's a bisim (Scottish term) and he has been influenced by backroom gossip. He will have laughed with colleagues about the introduction of the imaginary Pete. He will have paid attention to the furore around Kemp and has persuaded himself that the women need taking down a peg or two and he is the man to do it. He will be congratulating himself that he will be better than Kemp.

He doesn't see why there is any reasonable position against 'just be kind'.

By asking for his reasons for the gender neutral language instruction, NC is putting him on notice that she is preparing to kick his arse.

He didn't think she would kick his arse because he has all the arrogance of a man who has been in charge and not sufficiently questioned...probably ever. It has made him pay a bit more attention because he doesn't want his arse kicked.

He realises he hasn't thought it through sufficiently well, just thought be kind was reasonable, and so has given himself time to re-read the guidance over the weekend and cobble something together that does not admit a fuck-up on his part but which works within the guidance to the degree that NC won't have an opp to kick his arse. There can be no other reasonable explanation for him not to explain his reasons right away and to keep delaying the written instructions NC has requested.

I also think within his original mindset he genuinely believed that women, on the whole, are transphobes (as set out by the TRAS) and that the witness is being generally discriminated against and has come into the case willing to look for proof of some level of harassment.

I think he has been taken aback by the distinction between the poor, confused, ill-treated traumatised snowflake of the WS and the confident, articulate, intelligent and arrogant witness in person. I think he had made an assumption he would be meeting a delicate effeminate man, who had been quite cruelly disregarded, and would have been all sympathy. He had decided this in advance, and it took a while for him to register that ST was actually something very different than he had imagined and there is a significant dissonance between the person and the claims.

I think the J is experienced enough to be realising that he might have been sold a dummy, but it took him a while to get there because the legal clusterfuck around paperwork and disclosure masked it. ST as a witness was hidden behind the chaos and so the J became even more persuaded that this witness needed a gentle and caring hand, something Elspeth wouldn't need because although none of us has seen her WS yet there is no doubt she will come across as rational, intelligent and capable. Very far from the damaged snowflake ST wrote about in his WS and so not requiring the care the J thought ST needed and deserved. That all fed into his decision re gender neutral language.

But after the first day of questioning, I think he became a bit discombobulated by the dissonance between tone of WS and actual ST. It has slowly been dawning on him instead that this is a witness suffering from narcissism and a need for control, that there are deeper issues behind the claims of being trans that are being ignored by the TRA movement – and that the web Stonewall spun has been like a drug he has become addicted to beyond all reason.

DEFRA have countered the coming scrutiny from the off by attempting to ensure ST was given every accommodation he asked for, and more, and has had to be checked by the HR team who are more au fait with actual equalities and the need for balance than many in management roles. They will have been paying attention to the number of ETs won by women and will be trying to play both sides in terms of process. Balance has to be found somewhere and they are not sure how to get rid of the legacies of Stonewall bias and prejudice but what their awareness of scrutiny means is that the J doesn't have an easy place to go in his judgment (lots more to hear yet of course).

He can't just avoid the credibility issue of ST by laying his judgment at the door of a failure of process. I suspect that was why he was so keen to know if ST had asked for a further appeal rather than an appeal review and been refused. If ST had asked and been refused there would be wriggle room for a judgment around process. ST's answers to his questions also revealed a further lack of credibility with regard to ST (I wouldn't have known the difference/ I did know the difference equation).

I think the J's questions are all about trying to find wriggle room for a judgment around process that will mean he does not have to engage with the issue of sex at all.

I think he completely underestimated the intelligence of Elspeth and NC, nor how committed NC would be to accuracy.

I think he will be spending the weekend thinking how not to get his arse kicked. I don't think he thought he would lay himself open to that in the way he has.

It reminds me of the Sara Morrison case where the panel could not really have anticipated the evidence NC managed to expose around the complaints being made up, for example. No reasonable judge would have anticipated that being at all likely from a well-respected arts organisation. I suspect that ET judge is in a similar quandary: how to protect their own reputation ie how to skirt over many of the ridiculously stupid presumptions (and also Professor anyone?) but also prevent getting emboiled in the debate. I suspect they have also desperately looking to find around process rather than engage with witness credibility. ]

Anyhoo, thanks for the brain dump space in amongst so very many interesting takes and viewpoints.

Thanks for this!

As someone who wasn’t paying attention myself snd expected Dr Upton to be a delicate flower I can sympathise. That Stonewall training will see many more judges humiliated and not just this one….

But sadly the J best get a copy of the bench book down the back of his troosers. The bisim NC is always on best arse kicking form so he better brace for a good helping next week.

Mmmnotsure · 27/06/2026 17:36

@ProfLargofesse
Great post - thank you.