Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5031904-the-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued
TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

The hearing is in Leeds; the number of online observers has been limited by the court due to "capacity" and posters are reporting that requests for links are being declined on those grounds.

Also to note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case.

I think it's a photo setup at a fan convention, so yes you stand behind it and put your head and hand through. It's probably a specific webcomic or anime character. I doubt it's ST's usual way of dressing.

Probably this character https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Sub:Artoria_Pendragon/Gallery some of the images have that dress. With massive breasts, of course 🙄

That character isn't Samantha Tempest, but ST (the fictional charcter not the identity) is a charcter in a manga-style a webcomic.

While on dresses - I'm pretty sure a woman of ST (the identity)'s age wearing "little girl dreses" to work would attract the same derisive as ST did. He can clock that one up to ageism.

I was thinking of the appeal, yes, because ST doesn't seem like the kind of person who would take 'no' for an answer! (Not that it's up to him, and that will no doubt be another sticking point for him)

they're trying to get a ruling that specifies limits to Forstater that they can draw on.

Sadly academia isn't much better. I can't get my head around the idea that someone who isn't good at their job should be protected, seen as some sort of victim and carried by everyone else, rather than go through a support-to-improve process followed by a brisk firing if they can't sort themselves out. Academia is permanently skint; surely it can't afford to carry those who aren't good enough?

I suspect part of it is union-driven though. A union member can never do wrong - even if they are, say, watching porn in the office (true story), failing to actually go to work (true story) or turning up to drive public transport and failing a breath test (another true story - none of these were in academia but still in the public sector) - it's always the fault of Evil Management and never the porn-addled/malingering/drunk employee. The unions will defend them to the hilt against even the mildest disciplinary action

As for the judge's view on pronoun usage, could he be laying grounds for appeal now, so as to kick it up to the EAT?

We think it’s ridiculous (for good reason) but I bet a lot of people in the CS and tribunal system are sympathetic.

The unions will defend them to the hilt against even the mildest disciplinary action

Unless they’re in trouble for being a terf?

Thunderworm 😂

Ah, yes. If you're a woman with the wrong sort of opinions - ones the men/progressives don't like - you're on your own. Been hounded out of your job? Should have kept your mouth shut then, shouldn't you?!

I wonder why Robin White is no longer involved if that is the aim? I know someone on the other thread said RMW was representing the other claimant in the Andreas Mueller case that has been settled, but that not what is says on Elspeth's crowdfunder:

"The Claimant (Tempest) is no longer being represented by Robin White, but is now being represented by Helen Hogben from Trinity Chambers".

A lower tribunal is case specific it cannot limit the legal interpretation of an upper tribunal.

The only scope the judge in favour of ST is to determine that the utterances as described are beyond what is reasonably acceptable.

Which of course the evidence provided does not pass the test, in case law about freedoms of speech.

Unions do not usually fund such cases.

As for who is funding him there is really only one possibility, a fox wanting to stay under the radar.

And the silence on Reddit suggests that.

we will see.

I find in incredibly hard to believe that Jolyon would be quite about anything he or the GLP are involved with. I mean he practically shouts from the rooftops when they lose. He needs the publicity to keep people donating.

Maybe when they lose it'll be used as an excuse to get the begging bowl out again: "The courts are literally erasing transpeople's very existence and allowing nasty TERFs to hold opinions we don't like, but we're fighting back - donate now!"

As for the judge's view on pronoun usage, could he be laying grounds for appeal now, so as to kick it up to the EAT?

I find it difficult to believe that a judge's personal ego, let alone his professional pride, would allow him to deliberately 'throw' the match. Particularly with such a blatant contravention of the ETBB.

And they need to take a case all the way up to the ECHR (somehow I think this is not that case) so they may think they could get a binding judgment in the EAT or higher to set limits on Forstater, given how terribly unfair everything was for ST. I mean, I wouldn’t bank on it, but OPM, am I right?

"Nothing that is true and authentic is rocked by facts or opinion." A quote from the nitter thread and a neat summary. Maybe that will feature in the case sometime.

Robin White did represent both claimants at the earlier hearing https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6940286e33c7ace9c4a421da/1802467.24___2502512.23_Judgement.pdf

Maybe Tempest was not happy, maybe Robin was doing it pro bono but was not up for 3 weeks or is sick or something.

The judge going against the bench book is extraordinary, whatever his reasons for doing so. He is retired, could he have failed to keep up?

Maybe RMW is paying for it?

……………
😂

After having followed quite a few of these tribunals now, I wouldn't put anything past any judge right now.

do funding sources not have to be declared? Will it be a matter of public record in their accounts? I wonder whether they should when the money comes from a group (ie union) whose members have not given permission for their subs to be used in that manner. I would be fuming.

With all the money from his book? The one that was riddled with errors and out of date before it was even published.

As to the judge possibly failing to keep up with the latest version of the bench book, I do recall there was something along these lines in a recentish case. I can't remember the details though.

It's shocking if that's the reason though. Making sure you are not working from an outdated version of anything is kinda page one stuff for any lawyer.

But yes, if a judge can incorporate AI hallucinations in his judgment, I suppose nothing should be surprising.

Haha maybe

Trigger Warning
There is also the pc of pregnancy and maternity.

You can be pregnant or a breastfeeding Mum but must show no signs of it or have any indicators that bring it to the attention of coworkers.

It would be harassment of TW who are unable to accept they will never be pregnant or be able to breast feed.

do funding sources not have to be declared

No. Sometimes charities or unions advertise their support: Christian Concern, etc. But the court doesn’t need to know or care, and there’s no public right either. Nobody knows for sure who funded Sandie Peggy.

Remember when JR was trying to get SP to say who was funding her, in cross-examination?!

No one has to declare the source of their funding. Jane Russell tried to ask Sandie Peggie if JKR was funding her and was politely told to go away.

I would suspect some union funds have been used but in a large union "legal" would hide a multitude of sins. The PCS accounts get published - be interesting to see, eventually, if the 2023 figure of 508,911 increases a lot https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/69bdb55f13101e99087049e7/PCS_AR21_2023.pdf

It was suggested upthread that maybe JKR is funding it since these cases can be very helpful. 😂