How to respond he/she?

[Manchesteruser]

Out with friends. One friend's son has a TIM friend. Obviously male but fake boobs and wearing a dress, about 25. Everyone refers to him 'as she'. I asked one, 'why do you refer to him as 'her/she' rather than 'he' and was told that that was what he prefers.

How would you have responded?

Do you say to trans people that they should educate themselves and stop assuming that people who disagree with them politely are hateful and bigoted?

Try reading what older trans people have written on this subject, it may open your eyes.

It did. I discovered that attempts to explain gender identity as being a more enlightened replacement for sex in society are incoherent and damaging.

I do not understand how correctly sexing someone (perhaps someone you have known all his or her life) can be framed as "misgendering" and therefore automatically abusive. If I refer to a gay friend or relative of mine as "gay" it may or may not be abusive, depending on how I say it and the context. Even calling him "queer" may not be abusive, despite it having been used abusively countless times when I was a schoolboy.

If I call my son "he", do you think I'm going against the Forstater appeal judgment? I have loved and stood up for my son for the whole of his life, and it is in no way abusive if I refer to him accurately as the son he is. You would have me call my son "she" or pretend that he is my daughter. Bollocks (literally) to that. I cannot deny my son's existence. I don't base third person pronouns on how someone presents themselves or sees themselves; I base them on the knowledge and perception I have.

We all relate to everyone else based on our own perception of them. If you have just read what I have written and decided that makes me a bigot, you will relate to me based on that perception, not on the perception I have of myself, however much I would like you to see me as the lovely kind old gentleman I know myself to be. The gender identity worldview that lectures me on how I should refer to my son is as authoritarian as any religious cult I have come across (and I have come across many, from Moonies to rigid Christian sects).

Trans people can use whatever pronouns they like. What they can't reasonably do is dictate my pronoun usage. All my life I and literally everyone around me used third person pronouns based on sex. It is not OK to pretend that continuing that usage is hatred and abuse; that framing is damaging to the trans people who believe it. Pronouns are the property of the person using them to convey meaning as part of their language. The idea that there is such a thing as my pronouns which everyone must use about me is part of a widespread manipulation of other people's language, along with other examples such as "trans woman" which would make much more sense as "trans man" (a man who is trans) and vice versa.

Even "bigot" is the insult of choice of bigoted people who can see no other worldview than their own.

Lot's of how this impacts you but not them.

Misgendering functions as a targeted method of disrespect used to invalidate someone's identity. It's a kind of invalidation and erasure that makes them feel unseen or dismissed. Being misgendered can actively worsen anxiety, depression and gender dysphoria & can make people feel unsafe, stigmatised, and socially isolated which negatively impacts their ability to engage in workplaces and daily life.

If people cannot cope with being recognised as the sex they are they need to see a therapist

Pronouns are gendered not sexed.

Absolute bullshit.

yep

I suggest you notice the difference between real people and online propaganda.

Detransition is uncommon, and most of those who detrans didn't have any medical treatment at all. Many detrans due to violent transphobia, not regret.

Detrans people deserve love, support and to be heard. Their experiences are personal, not weapons to be used against trans people.

Can you really not see how coercively controlling how someone else speaks is a form of abuse?

You would have us all walking on eggshells, worrying about our language in case it 'invalidates' someone's someone's self-declared 'identity' which bears no resemblance to reality. Should we also validate the identity of the unwell man who insists he's Napoleon?

Not being able to control other people's speech, according to you, makes these people with pseudo identities feel 'unseen or dismissed'. A man with a pseudo identity of 'woman' should be pleased if he's 'unseen or dismissed' as people are just treating him like a woman.

Being forced into a situation where our speech is compelled to deny reality can make people anxious and negatively impact their ability to engage in workplaces and daily life.

Are you suggesting that Reddit is populated exclusively by bots?

I agree that it's difficult to know how much of what is written on those spaces is real, but I suppose the same could be said of Mumsnet. For example, how do I know you're a real person and not a bot?

Quite a few legal cases happening in the US for something so uncommon.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5469068-detransitioner-legal-cases-going-to-trial-in-usa-january-2026

Odd that something so uncommon needs this sort of support service being set up by the NHS.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5518492-detransition-pathway-uk-kudos-to-michael-kerr

And this in the US for children affected.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5530455-us-to-open-worlds-first-childrens-detransition-clinic-texas-hospital-to-offer-free-services-reversing-the-effects-of-gender-affirming-treatments

These 70 detransitioners also seem to be real people.
https://genspect.org/seventy-detransitioners-come-to-washington/

I'm sure OP won't be offended when other members of the group start calling her bigoted horror then.

1. even if detransition is uncommon it should be taken seriously because even 1 in 100 represents a failure rate which could be better safeguarded against. We do this for every other medical condition
2. at this stage I doubt we are seeing the true extent of the desire to detransition due to the age of the cohort most affected.
3. it seems the whole movement has uncanny parallels with cult like behaviour. If this is true, it would not be out of keeping with that for there to be a long period of investment in the movement before detransition. We are talking easily upwards of ten years in many cases.
4. we have numerous examples of how 'we shouldn't take this seriously because it's just some bots / idiots on Reddit talking shit' is a pattern of denial. As a rule I've always found quite the opposite. They are representative of something tangible - even if it's something we don't like to hear about and is inconvenient to our own beliefs. Over the years I've learnt the internet has this weird effect where many people are too afraid/ polite to say what they really feel because they don't want to isolate themselves or be piled on. I try now to hold to the courage of my convictions where I can in the knowledge that experience has taught me, when you open up the conversation others generally will eventually follow you if what you are saying holds an intrinsic truth even if you are swimming against the tide. I've learnt to try and recognise the pattern of intrinsic and unavoidable truth. I call it the 'wall of reality' and it's an inescapable force - like a black hole you gradually get sucked into it, if the truth is strong enough. Detransition firmly falls into this camp because you can't run away from your own sex forever.
5. saying that acknowledging the experiences of detransitioners is 'using it as a weapon against trans people' is coercive and abusive because of the avoidance of this wall of reality. Everything does not revolve around the denial of reality.
6. I have an actual degree which involved identifying propaganda and political manipulation as a key part of its core course. I've talked at length about this on numerous subjects not just the trans one. To what level are you educated in this field!?

Seriously..are you that transphobic/petty/mean that you can’t just suck it up and use ‘she’ if that’s what he prefers? I mean, you said he’s very nice. You’re on a night out. Why not have fun and get drunk like a normal person rather than trying to be difficult? No offence, but you sound like a right party pooper. And this is coming from a GC person who doesn’t believe people can change sex. However, if someone’s nice to me, I’ll be nice to them and I will respect them by calling them by whatever they want to be called. It’s not that hard. One guy wanting to be called she is not some big disrespectful campaign against all women kind. You need to chill. If he introduced himself as Alex and everyone called him that and others told you that’s what he liked to be called, but you caught a glimpse of his driving licence and saw it said ‘Alexander’, would you suddenly start calling him Alexander, and refuse to call him Alex, just cos ‘that’s the truth’? Of course not cos you’d look like a total bellend. I think calling him ‘he’ may make you look an even bigger bellend. Trans people aren’t going anywhere, you don’t have to support what they believe in, you can be protective of the rights of women & girls, and still be respectful and treat them like human beings

You are framing yourself as GC and yet you don't seem to understand why so many GC people don't regard this as nice nor respectful and actively think it's harmful to themselves and to the person themselves.

Perhaps you would like to read these posts, quote them and explain why your position is different because you just look like another scoldy plopper who doesn't actually have much of a clue other than screaming 'be kind' at everyone.

Saying you are GC doesn't change this optic.

‘You don’t have to support what they believe in’- but that’s exactly what you’re doing if you use wrong sex pronouns on their say so.

As for getting drunk like a ‘normal person’… Lots of ‘normal’ people don’t drink alcohol (or do drink alcohol but don’t get drunk). It’s not abnormal to avoid alcohol- you sound rather judgemental.

Can you really not see how coercively controlling how someone else speaks is a form of abuse?

So an expectation of a reciprocal social convention is coercive control now?
Can you really not see how ludicrously hyperbolic this is?

Now I can understand a concern about competing rights but the mean spirited nastiness over basic politeness really does betray this as garden variety bigotry.

You would have us all walking on eggshells, worrying about our language in case it 'invalidates' someone's someone's self-declared 'identity' which bears no resemblance to reality.

Oh the injustice & mortification of reciprocating preferred pronouns!!!! Just who the hell do you think you are? The pretentiousness is breathtaking. You'd think we were still in the days of the aristocracy ruling with this sort of classist snobbery.

Should we also validate the identity of the unwell man who insists he's Napoleon?

Of all the dim witted GC talking points this one takes the cake & regardless of how many times its patiently explained that the legitimacy is in the association it always falls on deaf ears.

Being forced into a situation where our speech is compelled to deny reality can make people anxious and negatively impact their ability to engage in workplaces and daily life.

Perhaps it might help if you accepted your subjective opinion doesn't necessarily qualify as "reality".

'Basic politeness'.

There's a whole film on the dangers of this and not challenging when appropriate because we should maintain this insane middle class British idea of politeness.

It's called "Hot Fuzz".

I recommend it.

And yes I am being straight up deadly serious in saying it's a real world warning about why this pattern of behaviour is not healthy.

No because the second you indicate in your language that being a woman is anything other than biological reality, you make it much harder for women to fight for their rights to single sex spaces. It always shocks me that people who are GC don't understand this.

If you're prepared to call a person 'she' how do you make the argument that no, 'she' shouldn't use women's spaces?

And to be honest, I think that's also unfair on the trans identifying man in question. Playing along with them part of the way, but then withdrawing is sending very mixed messages. Much better to be firm and clear from the get go.

I keep saying this but where did the idea come from that lying to people about how you perceive their sex is 'polite'?

Its the exact opposite

His name. A man with fake boobs, wearing a dress, is still a man.

@Manchesteruser In situations like this I use their name and they/them, because I refuse to pretend a he is a she.

Look I appreciate politeness can go too far by entrenching harmful behaviours but that depends on the circumstances. Trans people aren't 'sick'. Do you honestly believe that misgendering trans people will 'help them see the light'?

Where's the utility here?

Exactly. It's impolite of a man to a whole bunch of women to demand that they call him a woman.