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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Continuation of Polypostwonder thread

534 replies

Imdunfer · 02/06/2026 07:55

Follow on from this thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5532352-the-liminality-of-sex-perception-sex-based-spaces-and-bodily-autonomy?page=39

For argument sake, I understand Blaire White to be a woman. This is independent of the knowledge she chose to only undergo cosmetic facial surgeries and breast augmentation, while retaining everything else.
I think I remember reading that she politically aligns 'right' and is politically vocal about being a male, living as a trans woman. I'm not 100% sure, though. It's not a way that I could understand living, but it is financially lucrative in her case.

There is a person who declares themselves to be male.

That person chooses to live presenting as a female.

In spite of their self declaration as a male, complete with male genitals, you understand that they are a woman.

And you ascribe their understanding of themselves being male, at least partly, to financial motives.

This is either monumentally arrogant or monumentally stupid thinking, or possibly both. Or perhaps you just like playing with a largely female forum and seeing how many feathers you can ruffle.

One thing is for sure, and that is that I don't think anything you write on this subject from now on is going to be of any value to read.

OP posts:
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Imdunfer · 08/06/2026 20:46

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:42

Anyone applying or asking for entry in those situations does not have to define themselves in any form other than a woman or girl. Needing to specify 'cis woman' has never happened.

ETA: Trans people are the exception. They are <1% of the population and may/can be questioned in the above contexts if their sex is unclear to the provider or whomever.

Edited

But they do. If a male like you cannot be trusted not to rock up and say "yes I'm a woman" to get into a female space, then the real women can't establish their
right to be there without declaring in some way that they were born female.

Your blindness to this basic fact is astonishing.

ETA and I have to say it also begins to feel abusive.

OP posts:
polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:46

Helleofabore · 08/06/2026 20:45

And yet, there are very public court cases where people believed that ‘woman’ was specified only to find that they were sharing a changing room with a male person.

And none of the plaintiffs needed to identify themselves as anyone other than a woman.

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:48

Imdunfer · 08/06/2026 20:46

But they do. If a male like you cannot be trusted not to rock up and say "yes I'm a woman" to get into a female space, then the real women can't establish their
right to be there without declaring in some way that they were born female.

Your blindness to this basic fact is astonishing.

ETA and I have to say it also begins to feel abusive.

Edited

I'm still not understanding why you feel this is necessary. How does you declaring cishood affect my life or the operation of services designated for women?

ETA: or the lives of other women?

Imdunfer · 08/06/2026 20:55

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:48

I'm still not understanding why you feel this is necessary. How does you declaring cishood affect my life or the operation of services designated for women?

ETA: or the lives of other women?

Edited

What is clear is that you are willfully choosing not to understand why women want or need or are entitled to keep genetic males out of female only spaces.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 08/06/2026 20:56

There is NO SUCH THING as 'Cishood'.

Its all made up fucknuncklery.

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:57

Imdunfer · 08/06/2026 20:55

What is clear is that you are willfully choosing not to understand why women want or need or are entitled to keep genetic males out of female only spaces.

I am in complete support of keeping men out of women's spaces. I've already written about how I feel about trans people. The remainder is disagreement.

Helleofabore · 08/06/2026 20:59

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:57

I am in complete support of keeping men out of women's spaces. I've already written about how I feel about trans people. The remainder is disagreement.

There really is something dishonest in gaslighting female people that if a male person declares that they are female or woman, that female people who want to use language that is unique to female people (that excludes every single male person in regardless of how they identify) can just use the word female and woman as per normal and be understood with accuracy.

This is a prime example of that gaslighting. It all relies on a male
person rejecting any word being used for them other than female and woman, meaning that communication is rendered meaningless.

HousePlantEmergency · 08/06/2026 21:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Imdunfer · 08/06/2026 21:10

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:57

I am in complete support of keeping men out of women's spaces. I've already written about how I feel about trans people. The remainder is disagreement.

No you aren't. When you use the term men you exclude female identitying trans people.

Don't be disingenuous.

I agree with the person above, you are rendering this discussion meaningless.

OP posts:
polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 21:17

Imdunfer · 08/06/2026 21:10

No you aren't. When you use the term men you exclude female identitying trans people.

Don't be disingenuous.

I agree with the person above, you are rendering this discussion meaningless.

The discussion is meaningless, really.

ETA: because there is no commonality in belief and both sides are motivated to preserve our beliefs

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 08/06/2026 21:25

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 21:17

The discussion is meaningless, really.

ETA: because there is no commonality in belief and both sides are motivated to preserve our beliefs

Edited

But one side has both tradition (the traditional understanding that to produce a child you need one man and one woman to produce and breastfeed him or her, which humans in all societies had figured out millennia ago) and scientific fact (that to produce a child you need one sperm from a man and one egg from a woman, and a woman to gestate the zygote/foetus/baby and preferably to breastfeed the young child) behind its understanding of the two sexes. The other side has some jumbled up newfangled stuff about gender and gender identity.

HousePlantEmergency · 08/06/2026 21:26

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 21:17

The discussion is meaningless, really.

ETA: because there is no commonality in belief and both sides are motivated to preserve our beliefs

Edited

No.

Yours is a belief.

Reality is not a belief.

The majority of people understand reality.

It's not something you 'believe' in.

Catiette · 08/06/2026 21:38

Just checking in to say I've seen your reply to my last and plan to respond, PPW. Tech issues!

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 21:43

HousePlantEmergency · 08/06/2026 21:26

No.

Yours is a belief.

Reality is not a belief.

The majority of people understand reality.

It's not something you 'believe' in.

I do have beliefs, but I also have my life and my experience, which provides me some perspective in contrast to many of your beliefs. I've read some pretty wild beliefs about trans people on this website. But they are beliefs, none the less.

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 21:44

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 08/06/2026 21:25

But one side has both tradition (the traditional understanding that to produce a child you need one man and one woman to produce and breastfeed him or her, which humans in all societies had figured out millennia ago) and scientific fact (that to produce a child you need one sperm from a man and one egg from a woman, and a woman to gestate the zygote/foetus/baby and preferably to breastfeed the young child) behind its understanding of the two sexes. The other side has some jumbled up newfangled stuff about gender and gender identity.

Trans people aren't a blip upon the 'tradition' or 'scientific fact' you have detailed above. Humans will continue to do what they've done since they evolved.

HousePlantEmergency · 08/06/2026 21:50

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 21:43

I do have beliefs, but I also have my life and my experience, which provides me some perspective in contrast to many of your beliefs. I've read some pretty wild beliefs about trans people on this website. But they are beliefs, none the less.

You have no idea what "many" of my beliefs are. And if indeed, they would contrast with yours.

But this isn't about a clash of beliefs.

It's about factual, observable, measurable, material reality on one side, and belief on the other.

Reality and knowledge deals with with objective, verifiable facts, beliefs are built on trust, perception, and personal experience.
A belief is simply taking a proposition to be true.
Belief crosses over into "knowledge" only when its truth becomes objectively evident.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 08/06/2026 21:53

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 20:05

I don't believe most people feel a need to receive that level of specificity.

I'm sorry that you feel there is some reward society is prepared to offer you if you can separate yourself from trans people.

I don't believe your belief about other people is correct.

I'm sorry that you believe that female people's motivation to be understood in our own right independently of and without reference to male people is to gain a "reward" rather than the simple fact of our being female and the concerns of and needs of such male people not especially relevant to the concerns and needs of female. You are wrong about that.

This is not my "belief", that is my knowledge as a female person.

I appreciate that as a male person, you can only have "beliefs" about female people. However, as a female person, I can have knowledge you do not.

HousePlantEmergency · 08/06/2026 22:25

Oh dear.

Someone's having a strop and has reported my completely factual post.

Nothing offensive in it.
Unless you find reality offensive.

Which is I guess the crux of this movement.

Heggettypeg · 08/06/2026 22:28

Ordinary women who are not up to the minute in gender jargon should be able to ask for a woman to give them care (or whatever it may be), and be confident that they will get the real thing. And not be told that if they wanted that, they should have specified a "cis-woman" or "somebody assigned female at birth", or some such activist language which they have probably never heard of.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 08/06/2026 22:40

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 21:44

Trans people aren't a blip upon the 'tradition' or 'scientific fact' you have detailed above. Humans will continue to do what they've done since they evolved.

I recognise that there are people who are uncomfortable with their sex or wish they were the other sex or neither sex. I had an aunt who was probably in that category, though she certainly didn't say so. But she didn't know anything about "gender identity" because the concept had not been formulated. She knew she was a woman, and as she was a scientist she understood human biology to the degree it was known back then. She didn't pretend to be a man, and she had no interest, as far as I could tell, in femininity either. She was what is now known as gender non-conforming. She was accepted as an eccentric relative who ploughed her own furrow, which was fine. Cross-sex hormones were not available to her and she seems to have felt no need to change the name her parents had chosen for her. She just "lived her life" without demanding particular behaviour of anyone else.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 08/06/2026 22:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Catiette · 08/06/2026 22:50

polypostwonder · 08/06/2026 00:24

I will not be coming around to the gender critical definition.

Counter to the gender critical belief, I've also heard trans-supportive women state there is no single biologically-based characteristic or experience shared by all women, and as a social class, women share far more experiences within culture. My beliefs are similar to this. The perception of my biology is not in my control.

Society hasn't needed to know whether everyone it groups together culturally as women has identical functional biological capabilities, because factually they don't. The likely capacity of pregnancy was assumed of me and the roles of SAHM and eventually working mother were assigned to me.

The social definition of "woman" isn't "my definition" and it doesn't liberate me. I've never claimed that it does. I have no special ability that enables me to escape how society treats women as a class. Women have been culturally manipulated by society for far longer than I've been alive. My transition and inclusion within women didn't divert or change this in any way.

You and the majority of women experience your female biology as women. I understand that. The first definition of woman references biology for this reason. The word is also used socially, very commonly in other contexts that do not diminish the first definition.

I will not be coming around to the gender critical definition.

I don't expect you to. But this need to preface any reference to a fairly common belief (we can debate the exact extent, but not the truth of that at least) with "gender critical", apparently to reduce it to something rather more "niche" and politicised, does suggest a certain insecurity in your convictions.

Counter to the gender critical belief, I've also heard trans-supportive women state there is no single biologically-based characteristic or experience shared by all women, and as a social class, women share far more experiences within culture.

There will always, always, be exceptions to any view. We have flat-earthers and scientists who are anti-vaxers! That you're aware, on an individual level, of people who "state" this isn't really what's under discussion here, though. The issue's a holistic one: the conflicting rights of two oppressed demographics. I really wish you'd share your views on the universal, to explain more convincingly why you favour the one definition over the other.

For example, I'd argue that that annoying adage "the exception proves the rule" applies here. You say, "there is no single biologically-based characteristic or experience shared by all women". Technically speaking, you could perhaps say that! But the fact is that any 16-year-old girl who hasn't started her periods will be a source of immediate and quite serious medical concern. That individual's existence as an anomalous exception, and the consequent response to her, reinforces the sheer strength of the rule. In contrast, you say that "as a social class, women share far more experiences within culture" - you're suggesting there is some kind of predominant "rule" or pattern here - yet offer no example of this, let alone one that outweighs my biological example above. In fact, I'd argue that the sheer, expansive variety of women's subjective experiences globally and historically, and the impossibility of meaningfully circumscribing this actually disproves the existence of any rule - it makes it impossible to generalise one. I don't know what you'd say because you stay so resolutely away from telling us.

Society hasn't needed to know whether everyone it groups together culturally as women has identical functional biological capabilities, because factually they don't.

One exception to your tendency to avoid the general in favour of the individual is when you can make a safely inarguable statement like this, and I do see it as another form of avoidance. I mean, no one's arguing about "identical. functional. biological. capacities". Our arguments are strong enough that we feel able to be more nuanced in them, as I am above with my acknowledgement of DSDs and anomalies in female menstruation. And as for society "needing to know" this strawman? Well, it's hard not just to type, You don't say! A more honest approach may be to acknowledge that societies have historically "grouped" women because of their common functional biology - their reproductive potential, particularly since the emergence of patrilineal social structures, has presented a risk to the social order unless carefully controlled. This, however, may give the lie to the tomayto/tomahto or chicken-and-egg suggestion that what matters most is social behaviours and perceptions, not biological reality - or, at least, that they matter as much as each other. Because one, regrettably but indisputably, came first.

The likely capacity of pregnancy was assumed of me and the roles of SAHM and eventually working mother were assigned to me.

So, as I say above, what came first? What was/is paramount? A knowledge of female biology was necessary to this assumption. The societal and cultural associations followed.

The social definition of "woman" isn't "my definition" and it doesn't liberate me. I've never claimed that it does. I have no special ability that enables me to escape how society treats women as a class. Women have been culturally manipulated by society for far longer than I've been alive. My transition and inclusion within women didn't divert or change this in any way.

This gets rather abstract again, and honestly returns to some of the techniques I identify above to avoid some very key questions - individual over general, stating the inarguably obvious at the expense of addressing our actual arguments etc.

You and the majority of women experience your female biology as women. I understand that. The first definition of woman references biology for this reason. The word is also used socially, very commonly in other contexts that do not diminish the first definition.

Again, much of this is inarguable, but it does touch on the central issue again. Twenty years ago, all of it may well have been true: I think it would be fairly easy to argue that the casual, courteous use of "woman" and "she" for trans-identifying males didn't "diminish the first definition" back then. But to claim that it still doesn't, in a context of countries - plural - engaging in extensive public debate and actual courtroom battles over these conflicting definitions, is patently absurd. Once again, in evading the issue at hand, you do sometimes give the impression you're not 100% confident in your own convictions.

For what it's worth, I think I've said before but it's maybe time to add again, I do have a lot of sympathy for - and interest in - your position. I would, in the past, have given you "woman" and "she" quite willingly. But now? It's the posts like yours defending why we should continue to make this sacrifice that convince me that we can't afford to. Your arguments just don't seem to address ours - maybe not even to hear them. And how can women possibly hope to be heard better if we give up the only word with which we may distinguish ourselves?

JanesLittleGirl · 08/06/2026 22:52

Would it be wrong of me to think that PPW's carefully curated narrative of agency but not agency, location but not location, legal process but not legal process, combined with an astonishing confluence of medical conditions and treatments is even less plausible than the existence of the Bluestocking pub?

murasaki · 08/06/2026 22:54

I bet that'll get deleted too....

SpudGunToo · 08/06/2026 22:58

polypostwonder · 07/06/2026 15:18

The PP posted this example stating that this sport result was evidence of the threat of physical violence against female people.

She transitioned before puberty. As a girl, her male puberty was blocked and was redirected to a female direction. She will live the remainder in her life as a woman. Her body well within average for a girl, there is no male testosterone levels advantage.

I am not missing the point. I disagree with the gender critical belief. I believe she is not displacing any other girl because she belongs in her spot.

He will live his whole life as a man who has chosen to have extreme surgery because of either a fetish or a severe psychological problem.

Your six was determined at conception, you followed the male developmental path.

Your claim is no different to saying you are black if you colour your skin,