Continuation of Polypostwonder thread

[Imdunfer]

Follow on from this thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5532352-the-liminality-of-sex-perception-sex-based-spaces-and-bodily-autonomy?page=39

For argument sake, I understand Blaire White to be a woman. This is independent of the knowledge she chose to only undergo cosmetic facial surgeries and breast augmentation, while retaining everything else.
I think I remember reading that she politically aligns 'right' and is politically vocal about being a male, living as a trans woman. I'm not 100% sure, though. It's not a way that I could understand living, but it is financially lucrative in her case.

There is a person who declares themselves to be male.

That person chooses to live presenting as a female.

In spite of their self declaration as a male, complete with male genitals, you understand that they are a woman.

And you ascribe their understanding of themselves being male, at least partly, to financial motives.

This is either monumentally arrogant or monumentally stupid thinking, or possibly both. Or perhaps you just like playing with a largely female forum and seeing how many feathers you can ruffle.

One thing is for sure, and that is that I don't think anything you write on this subject from now on is going to be of any value to read.

If it was just 'mumsnet beliefs' you wouldn't be lying to yourself, all your friends and all your family.

“Both male and female puberties provide increased advantage over male 'minipuberty' combined with any additional pre-pubertal development”

Well not quite. .

Because female people don’t have that testosterone mini puberty to build from!

How the fuck can a female person build advantage from a development stage they don’t have?

“There is no proof that Becky Pepper Jackson is performing at anything other than the level of a girl at her age. She certainly isn't performing at the level of the boys.”
And here you show you don’t understand competitive advantage.

It doesn’t matter whether Pepper Jackson wins! He has had physical advantages available to him that NO female athlete has ever had. That being the exposure to testosterone that his body used for advantage.

The female sports categories is not there for mediocre male athletes who limited their performance so they could not compete in the male competition.

“I disagree that there is a safeguarding risk different than within any group of girls, with the addition that bullying and harassment of minorities is a large issue that I assume schools are paying attention to now vs when I was in school.”

We understand that you don’t understand a thing about consent and safeguarding. Hence of course you disagree.

However. Just because a group of people suffer abuse doesn’t mean you treat them as all the same for safeguarding. Male people have different safeguarding requirements to female people. Even male people who reject being male have different safeguarding needs to female people.

It is a safeguarding failure to consider any male person above about 10 years old to be harmless.

Some people put a lot of effort into the cosplay. It would be unkind to point out that its all surface illusion and deceit.

No matter what sufferings of females are ever discovered and described, there will be men whining 'what about me'.

No, I said what I meant to.

Words are cheap. By your actions, by your refusal to dignify female people with their own name outside your beliefs, by your needy reframing of what we experience because of our sex into things you can also experience because of how you believe people perceive you, you are shouting loud enough to be heard from space that you do not respect female people at all.

PPW why would you insist that genetic women refer to themselves with words in addition to woman in circumstances where they need to establish that they were born female, like sports and single sex clubs?

In order to distinguish ourselves from trans women, we are required by trans people to call ourselves CIS women or something like "women born with female chromosomes".

It is for the minority group to add a label, not the majority of the group that trans people want to be seen to belong to.

Of course your answer to this will be "I am a woman". Should you choose to try to complete at elite level in women's competition (yes there are some for older people), you'll swiftly find that's not the case.

So can you please put that answer aside right now and explain why you think women should have to add labels to themselves to describe to others that they are women born and bred, because a tiny number, statistically speaking, of men want to identify as women?

“It is a safeguarding failure to consider any male person above about 10 years old to be harmless.”

I am just going to qualify that with an addition.

It is a safeguarding failure to consider any male person above about 10 years old to be harmless to female people

I don't believe women should have to add labels to themselves.

How else do you propose, if you insist on calling yourself a woman, that I describe myself when I need to be clear that I was born female? For example if I was to do a sport at elite level or access a female only service.

If you insist on being called a woman then in that situation I have to add qualifying terms to that.

That isn't acceptable to me.

You’re not a woman therefore you need to add a qualifier. Women who were born female do not.

I don't believe most people feel a need to receive that level of specificity.

I'm sorry that you feel there is some reward society is prepared to offer you if you can separate yourself from trans people.

It is and never will be a REWARD for me to be able to access single sex support services following my rape.

that is so offensive.

I have told you of two specific examples of large areas of activity where that would be required. Most women would be affected at some point in their lives.

You simply ignore any point anyone makes that you find difficult.

WTAF is your last sentence supposed to even mean 😁😆🤣. Question is rhetorical, please don't answer.

I can't think of any situation where the first thought in someone's head is "am I speaking with a trans person? How do I determine this is not a trans person or if they are, filter them away? This needs an answer before progressing through the rest of whatever is happening." The presumption is "woman" or "man."

It's not about flipping trans.

It's about MEN.

Why do you believe you need to distinguish yourself from a trans person in these circumstances when the service provider probably isn't even considering this question?

MEN. It's about MEN.

“I'm sorry that you feel there is some reward society is prepared to offer you if you can separate yourself from trans people.”

Misogyny writ large.

The examples in the post you replied to were legitimate and reasonable.

I think it is hateful towards female people to treat the need for female single sex health professionals and sports as being “some reward society is prepared to offer you if you can separate yourself from trans people.”

The 'reward' being women's privacy, safety, and dignity.

My friend in another country requested a female health professional to do an intimate examination and felt forced to accept a male with a transgender identity due to the current ambiguous legal situation there. She specifically asked for a female person. It was very traumatic.

If a person cannot understand female people’s needs to have words that uniquely describe female people, I can only imagine that they simply have no experience as a female person, and don’t give a fuck about female people.

You can't think of one? I gave you two!

Let me spell it out for you. If male people like you insist on using or attempting to use female spaces, then the following situations would require a woman to say that they were "a CIS woman" or "a woman who was born female" or similar qualifiers.

Anyone applying to compete at national level in a female only sport, anyone applying to join a Women's Institute, anyone asking for entry to a women only swimming session, any girl joining Girl Guides, any woman being admitted to a female only hospital ward, any woman seeking support from a women only rape crisis centre, any lesbian joining a lesbian only club, any girl going to a girl's school .....

etc, etc, etc.

When someone shows you again and again how much they hate female people, believe them.

Anyone applying or asking for entry in those situations does not have to define themselves in any form other than a woman or girl. Needing to specify 'cis woman' has never happened.

ETA: Trans people are the exception. They are <1% of the population and may/can be questioned in the above contexts if their sex is unclear to the provider or whomever.

And yet, there are very public court cases where people believed that ‘woman’ was specified only to find that they were sharing a changing room with a male person.