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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg and the EHRC

165 replies

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:28

Retiredfromthere · Today 09:54

@Shortshriftandlethal "Men don't menstruate, have hot flushes due to menopause, or have leaky breasts due to breastfeeding. Cystitis, thrush, leaky bladder. Women and girls also use toilets, on occasion, to escape unwanted male attention."

Men also don't sit down to pee (most of them) but I assume that most transmen do. I know its quite an investment in surgery, risk and pain to get something that might allow a transman to pee standing up.

I also understand from Gussie Grips (is her name on here @Venusenvy?) that continence problems and gynaecological problems are quite normal for transmen. They probably will need the loo more than other women their age. I am very happy for them to Pee with me, men (including trans women) have no excuse for being in the ladies.

Most muslim men sit down to pee. For reasons of cleanliness, propriety and privacy

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:28

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 10:25

Is not stonewalls updated alphabet list? 😁

🤣

Apollo441 · Today 10:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:27

What job? Please enlighten us.

Not answering any questions. Specifically;
What is a transwoman? And how do we tell a genuine transwoman from fake transwoman?

RareGoalsVerge · Today 10:31

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:23

I take it we are supposed to agree that it is only 'heterosexual men' that are the real issue, not trans identified men, gay men, or autogynephilic cross dressers.

Edited

He's so close to understanding but has a huge mental block in the way of the last little bit. Of course the threat to women comes mostly from heterosexual men. We knew that. And of course not all men either - 95% of men are not a threat but our single-sex spaces exclude all men because, among other reasons, that's the only way to exlude the 5%. And members of that 5% are also found among men who are capable of putting on a wig and a skirt and uttering the words "I am a woman" so having any exceptions at all to the "no men" rule means that the rule doesn't exist and has no effect - it will only keep out the 95%, not the 5%.

Helleofabore · Today 10:31

AuntieFar · Today 10:25

Agreed. I obviously don't personally know BB but I think (suspect?) in this instance he is simply seeing 'oppression of rights' without really stopping to consider that (a) not all oppression of rights are comparable with each other, and (b) what he's raging against may not actually be an oppression of rights, when taking a certain viewpoint.

I absolutely agree with you that section 28 is not comparable to what is happening now, and using it as a parallel is actually counter-productive to BB's argument.

That doesn't mean he's wrong, or there is no issue at hand, but he could have framed it better.

Right.

He mentioned it as a tactic to then justify his framing of women campaigning to exclude male people as being from prejudice so that he could then use terms such as ‘anti-trans’ without anyone questioning it or rejecting it. (I have only made to that section of your OP so far)

But again, the use of the term ‘anti-trans’ is also a falsity. Because female people who campaign to exclude male people from female single sex provisions and language are not ‘anti-trans’.

However, he is wrong to make the comparison. I don’t believe he is interested in framing it better. He has not shown any interest in doing so from the start.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:27

What job? Please enlighten us.

Is it the job of letting us know that there are a sad little clutch of misogynistic tech obsessives spying on our chats about female sex based rights? We knew that already mate. Maybe a more edifying hobby might be an idea?

Pingponghavoc · Today 10:36

I'm going to have another go at writing my deleted post.

I think men see the male interpretation of trans as a sexuality, and public expression of it not very heterosexual. Thats why they don't think its odd that its lumped in with LGB. They see it as something gay men and closeted gay men do.

I think some have an interest in supporting the T and keeping the trans debate going. Because, once settled and women succeed, we might turn our attention to their behaviour and public expressions of their sexuality.

BackToLurk · Today 10:37

AuntieFar · Today 10:25

Agreed. I obviously don't personally know BB but I think (suspect?) in this instance he is simply seeing 'oppression of rights' without really stopping to consider that (a) not all oppression of rights are comparable with each other, and (b) what he's raging against may not actually be an oppression of rights, when taking a certain viewpoint.

I absolutely agree with you that section 28 is not comparable to what is happening now, and using it as a parallel is actually counter-productive to BB's argument.

That doesn't mean he's wrong, or there is no issue at hand, but he could have framed it better.

A ‘thoughtful and insightful’ post using an incorrect, and ultimately, counterproductive parallel. That’s quite the low bar you have there.

itswindyoutside · Today 10:38

He's factually wrong of course. The SC judgement clarified existing law. If people disagree, they should lobby the government for legislative change.

The EHRC chair gives a much more nuanced and factual explanation in this interview:
Political Thinking with Nick Robinson - Series 3: Dr Mary-Ann Stephenson - BBC iPlayer https://share.google/FoJPx4W7SbdUWtEHD

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:38

RareGoalsVerge · Today 10:31

He's so close to understanding but has a huge mental block in the way of the last little bit. Of course the threat to women comes mostly from heterosexual men. We knew that. And of course not all men either - 95% of men are not a threat but our single-sex spaces exclude all men because, among other reasons, that's the only way to exlude the 5%. And members of that 5% are also found among men who are capable of putting on a wig and a skirt and uttering the words "I am a woman" so having any exceptions at all to the "no men" rule means that the rule doesn't exist and has no effect - it will only keep out the 95%, not the 5%.

The issue for me, though, that it is not just about protection from direct sexual abuse, but also from the essential 'otherness' of male people. The privacy of one's sex is valid a reason enough to have single sex spaces in intimate types of situation...certainly when in public spaces amongst strangers.

I wouldn't want to get undressed in front of gay male friends either.....not because i think they'd fancy me or be attracted or anything, but because most of the gay men I know tend to feel very free to make comments about women's bodies, and talk about sex in a way which I'm not comfortable with. Male approaches to sex and sexuality tend to be quite different to that of women. Their sexual orientation makes no difference. They are still male.

Menier · Today 10:39

Hi Op,
Im old now so was actually alive during S28, I was also around on the London club scene,
music industry adjacent, have met BB more than once and can also remember The Vauxhall Tavern well before it apparently became the UK's premier venue for LGBTQIA+ culture.
If you are genuinely looking to find out more about the Supreme Court ruling and the subsequent EHRC guidance I'd highly recommend two books, firstly The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht' by Lucy Hunter Blackburn and Susan Dalgety and secondly The New Puritans by Andrew Doyle. These will give you a much better grasp on it that anything BB has to say.
I'd love to hear your opinions on BB's article once you have read those.
BTW you don't actually say what your opinions actually are.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:41

Menier · Today 10:39

Hi Op,
Im old now so was actually alive during S28, I was also around on the London club scene,
music industry adjacent, have met BB more than once and can also remember The Vauxhall Tavern well before it apparently became the UK's premier venue for LGBTQIA+ culture.
If you are genuinely looking to find out more about the Supreme Court ruling and the subsequent EHRC guidance I'd highly recommend two books, firstly The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht' by Lucy Hunter Blackburn and Susan Dalgety and secondly The New Puritans by Andrew Doyle. These will give you a much better grasp on it that anything BB has to say.
I'd love to hear your opinions on BB's article once you have read those.
BTW you don't actually say what your opinions actually are.

Yes, my male friend used to take me to the Vauxhall Tavern in the early 1980s...it was all about drag; which is also something I've never felt comfortable with. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. Of course, you are supposed to say how it is an "esential part of gay male culture" and how it shows gay men's "veneration towards women".

RareGoalsVerge · Today 10:44

I agree with you @Shortshriftandlethal which is why the post you quoted includes "among other reasons" - there are plenty of good reasons for a woman not wanting to share intimate spaces with any male other than her partner (if she has a male partner) which apply even if the male in question is not a direct threat - but the post would have quintupled in length if I'd listed them all.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 10:44

He does give the impression of being a little out of touch with the last decade or three. Though I don't think women's rights were ever really his thing.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:45

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 10:44

He does give the impression of being a little out of touch with the last decade or three. Though I don't think women's rights were ever really his thing.

Yes, going along with 'women's rights' was just something you had to do in your social circle in order to 'get with' the ladies.

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