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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg and the EHRC

165 replies

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

OP posts:
Hopefulsalmon · Today 07:53

As someone who campaigned against Section 28, I find this patronising and insulting. Billy's thinking and arguments are muddled - for example, many trans identified men are heterosexual and pose an equal risk as 'normal' men to females.
I'm not anti trans and do feel transwomen are at risk in male loos but that's men's problem to solve, increasing the risk to women isn't the answer. Why isn't he (and all the other trans allies) campaigning for male loos to be more inclusive?

TheyAreLovelyLovelyPeople · Today 07:53

Gently asking, OP, are you able to explain to me what makes a transwoman a woman, please? Obviously one starts out as a man, at what point and how does the change happen? I don't understand and no one will tell me.

ColdOut2025 · Today 07:54

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

So if the risk comes from "heterosexual " men...what about "trans lesbians": men that fancy women whilst they wear a dress? Or could we get back to that brief period when we tried to de gender clothing but recognised biology actually matters,and does affect the relationship between the sexes,and the type,or amount, of abuse,and risk, they may suffer. And that's before even looking at basic decency, and also, "no means no "

Wearenotborg · Today 07:55

AuntieFar · Today 07:15

Yeah, I also spotted that one; and it's a fair point.

I do think that's the one area in his post where he misses the mark, although his comment of that was presumably predicated on the idea that most business don't want the cost and/or disruption of arranging an alternative and, thus, the judgement is an exclusion in real terms despite the provision in law.

I'm seeing a lot of business taking the path of least resistance and simply turning their previously divided toilet spaces into unisex.

But wouldn’t that put TIM in danger? I mean, they say they are in danger in men’s facilities, so surely unisex would be just as dangerous, as the very men they are afraid of would also be using those facilities. I think people calling for unisex facilities need to think of these poor men and do better

Wearenotborg · Today 07:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 07:51

No. The tone is familiar.

The name gives it away. 3rd name playing on antifa this week. Not sending their brightest and best are they 🥱🥱🥱🥱

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 07:58

Ooh I missed the others. Been a busy week.

nutmeg7 · Today 08:00

AuntieFar · Today 07:24

Does Mr Bragg say in his statement that he doesn't "see women as human" though? Really? I'm not sure that he does.

But statements like yours are rather indicative of the problem, aren't they? I'd gently suggest that the mental gymnastics that lead you from his statement above to him actually, literally dehumanising women - which he very clearly hasn't - are symptomatic of how many people view the GC movement.

You are, in short, doing the GC community no favours when you react to things as you do. Regardless of whether GC ideology is right or not, you come across as presumptive, aggressive, and lacking in critical thinking. That is a very bad look, and only serves to fuel the fire of the TRAs.

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.

That’s us told. We’ll try and meet your standards of feminine kindness and gentleness next time.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:01

nutmeg7 · Today 08:00

That’s us told. We’ll try and meet your standards of feminine kindness and gentleness next time.

Yes, like all the many kind “trans women” who want to be especially nice to women they disagree with on our sex based rights.

Cheese55 · Today 08:03

BackToLurk · Today 07:18

Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men

So by his logic gay and bisexual men should also be allowed in the ladies. He really isn’t one of the world’s great thinkers, is he?

Is a transwomen not heterosexual then? I thought that is why they get annoyed with lesbians for not sleeping with them?

nutmeg7 · Today 08:04

Hopefulsalmon · Today 07:53

As someone who campaigned against Section 28, I find this patronising and insulting. Billy's thinking and arguments are muddled - for example, many trans identified men are heterosexual and pose an equal risk as 'normal' men to females.
I'm not anti trans and do feel transwomen are at risk in male loos but that's men's problem to solve, increasing the risk to women isn't the answer. Why isn't he (and all the other trans allies) campaigning for male loos to be more inclusive?

Because that would cost him something in thought time and effort, and would challenge his belief that men can self-identify into womanhood without anyone asking what that might mean for female people.

EdinaTheConfessor · Today 08:04

Here we go again comparing women’s rights activism to Section 28 and completely missing the point that a large proportion of trans rights activism is fundamentally homophobic.
I despair that so many members of the LGB community are happy to accept the T when they are incompatible in so many ways.

MohavePenstemon · Today 08:07

I always wonder what these men would say if asked why gender affirming care is so prevalent in Iran, where homosexuality is punishable by death, and why it's limited to biological males.

Shedmistress · Today 08:09

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

OP what is your definition of the difference between 'men' and 'trans women'?

What makes a man turn into a 'trans woman', what changes and how do we know we are looking at a 'trans woman' rather than just a man?

nutmeg7 · Today 08:10

Wearenotborg · Today 07:57

The name gives it away. 3rd name playing on antifa this week. Not sending their brightest and best are they 🥱🥱🥱🥱

Hmmm, this might be their brightest and best.

Shortpoet · Today 08:12

Weirdly, my husband mentioned Billy Bragg only yesterday in conversation. (He still likes his music whereas I’ve gone right off him). I said he’d been very quiet lately and was surprised I hasn’t seen him campaigning against women’s rights lately.

Well clearly he’s still at it. I agree with PP. He doesn’t have empathy for women. Describing WoS as having “badgered” the Supreme Court, (like that’s even possible).
To me that choice of word shows disrespect.

Given that he sings a lot about struggle , revolution and protest, he doesn’t seem to respect those that have legally and successfully fought for the rights of women. It feels like he’s implying that women nagged the SC until they just gave in, with all the misogynistic overtones that carries.

(Aside: If Billy has a blacklist, I want to be on it).

I feel like he uses the case of trans men in toilets as a gotcha. I don’t think he gets women’s visceral fear of rape. I read his point as “Hey ladies, rapists can just say they’re trans men, so what are you going to do about that - ha!”

Also, like PP, It’s not just toilets, it’s prisons, DV shelters, rape support groups, elder and disabled women’s care, sports.

He doesn’t and won’t ever get it from women’s pov.

OneTaupeShaker · Today 08:16

He's like LOJ and JM in the fact he's admitted he thinks men are neanderthals who can't be trusted around anyone but especially men in dresses.

How about addressing the very real problem of violent men instead of expecting women to be the support and shield all the time.

OneTaupeShaker · Today 08:16

.

terryleather · Today 08:19

Cannae be arsed to read it but am guessing it’s tuneless auld guy tries to stay relevant by burnishing his halo and shitting on women at the same time.

Tedious.

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 07:34

Any man insistent on wedging men into places where women and girls undress fails to see women as having rights and boundaries. He, like most of those arguing against the SC judgment, see women and girls as being support humans for sad men, required to undress in front of them, while ignoring women's legal rights to safety, privacy and dignity in order to validate these men's delusions.

The "lack of care and consideration" for others is all on the side of those insisting that men must have free access to girls and women undressing.

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · Today 08:24

I remember seeing a while back that Billy just saw this new ideology as a new audience to exploit. He doesn't really think this, it is all just for beefing up his pension.

Bertiebiscuit · Today 08:25

AuntieFar · Today 07:24

Does Mr Bragg say in his statement that he doesn't "see women as human" though? Really? I'm not sure that he does.

But statements like yours are rather indicative of the problem, aren't they? I'd gently suggest that the mental gymnastics that lead you from his statement above to him actually, literally dehumanising women - which he very clearly hasn't - are symptomatic of how many people view the GC movement.

You are, in short, doing the GC community no favours when you react to things as you do. Regardless of whether GC ideology is right or not, you come across as presumptive, aggressive, and lacking in critical thinking. That is a very bad look, and only serves to fuel the fire of the TRAs.

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.

Oh come on, Mr Bragg is a famous misogynist, a fully paid up lefty bro who thinks actual women should do as they are told. How naive you are

AuntieFar · Today 08:25

terryleather · Today 08:19

Cannae be arsed to read it but am guessing it’s tuneless auld guy tries to stay relevant by burnishing his halo and shitting on women at the same time.

Tedious.

And this is why the cut and thrust of proper discourse will always elude you, and also why your opinion holds less merit.

If you find it difficult to read the text, that's fair enough, but if you simply - by your own admission - "cannae be arsed" then that reflects badly on you and invalidates any comment(s) you may have on the topic at hand.

Reading, and moreover understanding is very important.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · Today 08:26

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

Well then you don't seem to know much about women at all then.

It is only a place to pee for that other half of the human population, who incidentally are the ones who CAN pee in a bottle and chuck it over themselves in protest at women wanting to get away from them and their ilk.