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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg and the EHRC

165 replies

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:26

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

Right so, leaving that disagreement aside, how about changing rooms, you agree men including “trans women” shouldn’t be accessing spaces where women are in fact unclothed?

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:28

Well not being one of the intelligent, thoughtful MNetters, no thanks, my sense is that he's just another man telling women what they can and cannot do, what they must do to please the menz, and regurgitating the old, old mime that if men are unhappy it must be all the fault of women. 🤮

Igneococcus · Today 08:28

Lord almighty, the condescension is strong in this one.

TitanicRose · Today 08:28

I was around and campaigned against s28. I think a lot about the possible parallels and worry that maybe I have this wrong and that in the future I’ll be horrified at my stance. I read a lot on here but don’t post so I don’t think I’m a ‘usual suspect’. I doubt I’m intelligent but I try to be thoughtful. Perhaps I qualify to comment based on your criteria?

I do not think comparison with s28 works.

Toilets (and more particularly prisons and healthcare, which are what I actually worry about as well) were separated by biological sex for safety reasons. I don’t think trans-allies disagree with this? The equivalent in s28 was that gay/lesbian relationships were ‘separated’ by prejudice ie nobody was saying two men can’t be married because it made someone unsafe.

So to me the starting point is different. S28 was about overcoming prejudice, if that was achieved there was nothing else to ‘solve’.

If toilets (etc) are no longer separated by biological sex, there is still a problem to solve and that is, if changes are made, how is women’s safety ensured. To me without accepting that there are valid concerns that remain, then the EHRC position is inevitable. This article by Billy Bragg still does not address these concerns.

So yes, I think about this. No, I don’t think comparisons to s28 are valid. And I think articles like this do nothing to move the argument on.

In simple terms if you took a homophobic person and asked them to evidence a single risk or harm as a result of s28 being overturned I don’t think they would have anything that stands up.

However, there is evidence of harm from removing singe sex spaces. My frustration is that the “defence” on this from people like Billy Bragg is denial that it happens, or stating that it might happen but it is rare and therefore so what, or other arguments that just don’t address the issue.

napody · Today 08:29

Igneococcus · Today 07:35

Why is he banging on about section 28?

Mansplaining. False equivalence. Enjoying the sound of his own voice (at least someone does).

OP which part of that EXACTLY was 'thoughtful and measured'? I think the word you're looking for here is simply 'long'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:30

napody · Today 08:29

Mansplaining. False equivalence. Enjoying the sound of his own voice (at least someone does).

OP which part of that EXACTLY was 'thoughtful and measured'? I think the word you're looking for here is simply 'long'.

Edited

It’s a crowded field, the Mansplaining Olympics.

truepenguin · Today 08:30

with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up.

I think this is his happy place. Linking the EHRC to her is dog whistle ground for him.

Igneococcus · Today 08:32

I was partially unclothed in a toilet about a week ago. Stranded at an airport overnight, not one of those airports that has showers like AMS, a more basic one and it had been a very hot day. I stripped down to my bra and gave myself a bit of a wash in the sink. I wasn't the only woman who did it either.

BackToLurk · Today 08:34

Igneococcus · Today 08:32

I was partially unclothed in a toilet about a week ago. Stranded at an airport overnight, not one of those airports that has showers like AMS, a more basic one and it had been a very hot day. I stripped down to my bra and gave myself a bit of a wash in the sink. I wasn't the only woman who did it either.

See also ‘spilt coffee down top’.

BackToLurk · Today 08:35

Although I fear describing the many reasons a woman may strip in the toilets may be exactly what the OP would like to read.

JustHereWithMyPopcorn · Today 08:38

Billy Bragg is a misogynistic twat. Nothing he has ever said on this topic has remotely considered women’s needs, comforts, privacy or protection. He needs to stfu.

Sausagenbacon · Today 08:40

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.
I'll just have to lower the bar here and tell you to fuck off.

nutmeg7 · Today 08:40

AuntieFar · Today 08:25

And this is why the cut and thrust of proper discourse will always elude you, and also why your opinion holds less merit.

If you find it difficult to read the text, that's fair enough, but if you simply - by your own admission - "cannae be arsed" then that reflects badly on you and invalidates any comment(s) you may have on the topic at hand.

Reading, and moreover understanding is very important.

Ooh lovely, OP back to patronise us.
<claps hands in delight at the prospect of being further patronised>

Anything to say about this sort of threatening attitude from some trans identified males in the women’s toilets? Should we just accept this as a price worth paying for never saying no to male desires?
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTVPrQWDW9p

Jack Jewell on Instagram: "Last night at the Not All Gays @notallgaysire awards at the Hippodrome Casino in Leicester Square, London, an incident occurred that I think is worth discussing! Two men were present in the women’s toilets. A group of young...

140K likes, 9,927 comments - jackxjewell on January 10, 2026: "Last night at the Not All Gays @notallgaysire awards at the Hippodrome Casino in Leicester Square, London, an incident occurred that I think is worth discussing! Two men were present in th...

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTVPrQWDW9p

nutmeg7 · Today 08:41

Sausagenbacon · Today 08:40

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.
I'll just have to lower the bar here and tell you to fuck off.

Goodness, how unwomanly of you! 😂

terryleather · Today 08:41

AuntieFar · Today 08:25

And this is why the cut and thrust of proper discourse will always elude you, and also why your opinion holds less merit.

If you find it difficult to read the text, that's fair enough, but if you simply - by your own admission - "cannae be arsed" then that reflects badly on you and invalidates any comment(s) you may have on the topic at hand.

Reading, and moreover understanding is very important.

The idea that you think anything BB has to say is in any way important or relevant to the fact that men can’t be women and should stay out of women’s spaces “reflects badly on you and invalidates any comments you may have.”

GeneralPeter · Today 08:42

AuntieFar · Today 07:24

Does Mr Bragg say in his statement that he doesn't "see women as human" though? Really? I'm not sure that he does.

But statements like yours are rather indicative of the problem, aren't they? I'd gently suggest that the mental gymnastics that lead you from his statement above to him actually, literally dehumanising women - which he very clearly hasn't - are symptomatic of how many people view the GC movement.

You are, in short, doing the GC community no favours when you react to things as you do. Regardless of whether GC ideology is right or not, you come across as presumptive, aggressive, and lacking in critical thinking. That is a very bad look, and only serves to fuel the fire of the TRAs.

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.

@AuntieFar You are, in short, doing the GC community no favours when you react to things as you do. Regardless of whether GC ideology is right or not, you come across as presumptive, aggressive, and lacking in critical thinking. That is a very bad look, and only serves to fuel the fire of the TRAs.

On the contrary, the MN feminist board has some of the most well-informed and articulate debate I know of.

TRAs wanted “no debate”, and almost got it. But thanks largely to MNers’ refusal to go along, the issues are being aired and the sex-based rights side is winning the argument.

Billy Bragg and the EHRC
OotontheRandan · Today 08:43

It isn't about erasing trans people.

But I know I don't want to share toilets or changing rooms with a biological male, not when it means risking being shoved into a toilet cubicle or changing room cubicle by someone physically stronger than me and I can't get out or away from them.

It is all very well saying that people just want to pee. But when TRAs are actively posting about violence to women, then it isn't about safety, is it?

Surely what we do is work on men and women agreeing to accept that the bandwidth has changed - the category of Man also includes Trans Woman. The category of Woman also includes Trans Man. However people wish to externally express their internal feelings falls within the categories, not outwith.

nutmeg7 · Today 08:43

BackToLurk · Today 08:35

Although I fear describing the many reasons a woman may strip in the toilets may be exactly what the OP would like to read.

Oh dear, you might be right!

Cheese55 · Today 08:44

TitanicRose · Today 08:28

I was around and campaigned against s28. I think a lot about the possible parallels and worry that maybe I have this wrong and that in the future I’ll be horrified at my stance. I read a lot on here but don’t post so I don’t think I’m a ‘usual suspect’. I doubt I’m intelligent but I try to be thoughtful. Perhaps I qualify to comment based on your criteria?

I do not think comparison with s28 works.

Toilets (and more particularly prisons and healthcare, which are what I actually worry about as well) were separated by biological sex for safety reasons. I don’t think trans-allies disagree with this? The equivalent in s28 was that gay/lesbian relationships were ‘separated’ by prejudice ie nobody was saying two men can’t be married because it made someone unsafe.

So to me the starting point is different. S28 was about overcoming prejudice, if that was achieved there was nothing else to ‘solve’.

If toilets (etc) are no longer separated by biological sex, there is still a problem to solve and that is, if changes are made, how is women’s safety ensured. To me without accepting that there are valid concerns that remain, then the EHRC position is inevitable. This article by Billy Bragg still does not address these concerns.

So yes, I think about this. No, I don’t think comparisons to s28 are valid. And I think articles like this do nothing to move the argument on.

In simple terms if you took a homophobic person and asked them to evidence a single risk or harm as a result of s28 being overturned I don’t think they would have anything that stands up.

However, there is evidence of harm from removing singe sex spaces. My frustration is that the “defence” on this from people like Billy Bragg is denial that it happens, or stating that it might happen but it is rare and therefore so what, or other arguments that just don’t address the issue.

The thing is that there were always 'transvestites' as i used to see a few in my home town but they didnt think they were women. Also I dont think many of us are worried if a man wants to dress as a woman so its not like trying to erase gay people like s28. I also dont think most people are concerned about people who go to Turkey and remove their penis etc, its the concern that all these men say they are now woman and have lived a woman's experience .

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:45

terryleather · Today 08:41

The idea that you think anything BB has to say is in any way important or relevant to the fact that men can’t be women and should stay out of women’s spaces “reflects badly on you and invalidates any comments you may have.”

Perfectly put.

Pingponghavoc · Today 08:45

Billy bragg is easily confused.

I dont know why he wrote more about Section 28 than the guidance that was recently published. By doing so hes muddled up two separate issues in his mind.

The guidance reflects the law. Its legal to provide separate single sex services and opportunities, and men are excluded from those designed for women.

The courts have confirmed that men, regardless of their sexuality or gender identity are not female. They have no rights to be included in women single sex spaces.

Its nothing to do with promotion of LGBT people. Local authorities are allowed to promote LGBT initiatives including having LGBT and only T groups.

To say that the threat to women is from heterosexual men is true in part, but gay men are a threat to women too, as are bisexual men and also men who identify as lesbians.

Its like saying the majority of rapists live is cities; so men living in villages don't rape. They obviously do, but the absolute numbers are lower.

Its also not only about rape. Its about women and girls dignity and not being intimidated.

Previous poster are correct when they say he doesnt see women as human. He doesnt see why women need the PC of Sex.

If we arent our sex, what are we?

Sausagenbacon · Today 08:45

Goodness, how unwomanly of you! 😂
Yes, obviously, as a woman, i should carefully unpick BB's (such an intellectual giant!) Sermon with more reverence.

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 08:45

I'm shocked shocked I tell you that billy bragg continues to be a misogynistic clueless arse about this subject - I'd call him a cunt but he has neither the depth or the warmth

or that the OP thinks he has a point

RufustheFactualReindeer · Today 08:45

AuntieFar · Today 08:25

And this is why the cut and thrust of proper discourse will always elude you, and also why your opinion holds less merit.

If you find it difficult to read the text, that's fair enough, but if you simply - by your own admission - "cannae be arsed" then that reflects badly on you and invalidates any comment(s) you may have on the topic at hand.

Reading, and moreover understanding is very important.

Shes not wrong though…..

EdinaTheConfessor · Today 08:50

What the OP (and BB) seem to conveniently forget is that the EHRC isn’t just about toilets, it’s about changing rooms, prisons, rape crisis centres all the other places you might find vulnerable (and yes, sometimes naked) women. Toilets are such a scapegoat argument to the “just want to pee” brigade, whereas actually a lot of women (not all I appreciate) couldn’t actually give two hoots who is peeing in a locked cubical next to them.