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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg and the EHRC

166 replies

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

OP posts:
Retiredfromthere · Today 09:54

@Shortshriftandlethal "Men don't menstruate, have hot flushes due to menopause, or have leaky breasts due to breastfeeding. Cystitis, thrush, leaky bladder. Women and girls also use toilets, on occasion, to escape unwanted male attention."

Men also don't sit down to pee (most of them) but I assume that most transmen do. I know its quite an investment in surgery, risk and pain to get something that might allow a transman to pee standing up.

I also understand from Gussie Grips (is her name on here @Venusenvy?) that continence problems and gynaecological problems are quite normal for transmen. They probably will need the loo more than other women their age. I am very happy for them to Pee with me, men (including trans women) have no excuse for being in the ladies.

AuntieFar · Today 10:01

Apollo441 · Today 09:34

Isn't it time for the OP to reappear on the thread having ignored every point being made and complain how we are all bigots and don't engage?

You are, not for the first time in your life, missing some things.

If you read back I think you'll find I have addressed all legitimate points raised.

Indeed, yours is being responded to solely to correct you since you don't actually have a point.

As I said way back in the opening post, I looked forward to an actual discussion before the Usual Suspects of MNet rolled in to disrupt. You'd be one of those.

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 10:07

lol you really are an embarrassment OP - with a strangely familiar posting style

Arran2024 · Today 10:09

Billy Bragg takes us back to Thatcher and Section 28. Well, Billy, back then, the idea that men would eg retain their full beards and call themselves lesbians, put a false, plastic cleavage on and go to work as a lecturer like that, that middle aged men who have fathered children would dress as porn stars and think this gives them full rights as women, that Lia Thomas would be welcomed to compete as a woman and undress in front of naked girls....all of it was completely unthinkable.

We are where we are, Billy, and that's a bunch of men taking the proverbial at our expense.

TitanicRose · Today 10:10

AuntieFar · Today 10:01

You are, not for the first time in your life, missing some things.

If you read back I think you'll find I have addressed all legitimate points raised.

Indeed, yours is being responded to solely to correct you since you don't actually have a point.

As I said way back in the opening post, I looked forward to an actual discussion before the Usual Suspects of MNet rolled in to disrupt. You'd be one of those.

To be fair I think I raised a legitimate, thoughtful point that could lead to an actual discussion (8:28am for ease of reference). I genuinely do try and question my thought process and would be interested in your thoughts on it.

BackToLurk · Today 10:12

AuntieFar · Today 10:01

You are, not for the first time in your life, missing some things.

If you read back I think you'll find I have addressed all legitimate points raised.

Indeed, yours is being responded to solely to correct you since you don't actually have a point.

As I said way back in the opening post, I looked forward to an actual discussion before the Usual Suspects of MNet rolled in to disrupt. You'd be one of those.

Why is the onus on female people to accommodate some male people within their spaces, and not on male people to accept everyone of their sex , regardless of how they present or identify?

Helleofabore · Today 10:17

There are numerous falsities in what Bragg says.

The comparison between Section 28 doesn’t work because sexual orientation is not comparable to the situation where a group of male people demand to be treated as if they were female when they are not and can never be. It is a flawed comparison to make and it only gets made to force team the political campaign of people who are same sex or both sex attracted, some of which are transgender, with the demands of some people to be treated as if they are the sex category they are not.

It is an emotionally manipulative tactic to do so.

Apollo441 · Today 10:19

AuntieFar · Today 10:01

You are, not for the first time in your life, missing some things.

If you read back I think you'll find I have addressed all legitimate points raised.

Indeed, yours is being responded to solely to correct you since you don't actually have a point.

As I said way back in the opening post, I looked forward to an actual discussion before the Usual Suspects of MNet rolled in to disrupt. You'd be one of those.

And you convieniently ignored my question.

What is a transwoman? And how do we tell a genuine one from a fake one?

We await the answer with bated breath...

HousePlantEmergency · Today 10:19

I'm calling James O'Brien on this one.

Very familiar condescending tone and thinly veiled disdain for women and their opinions.

He doesn't present at the weekend, so he needs to thrust his manly, important thoughts on us somehow.

Coatsoff42 · Today 10:20

BackToLurk · Today 10:12

Why is the onus on female people to accommodate some male people within their spaces, and not on male people to accept everyone of their sex , regardless of how they present or identify?

Yes, another: ‘men have a problem, it’s with other men, women have to go out of their way to solve it’ post, from a man!

what do all the gender non conforming men with long hair and eyeliner and nail varnish do? Men who wear sparkly tops? Men who wear pink trousers? How are all these men managing to survive the horrors of men’s single sex spaces.

Pingponghavoc · Today 10:21

Bragg isnt addressing the central issue.

Sex exists, we all have rights based on this.

If he wants policy to ignore sex and instead based it on "gender identity" he's free to lobby the government or even try to be elected.

If he wants people to get behind him, he needs to write better than this. Its sentimentally and ignores the reasons we have single sex space in the first place.

Why do we need separate spaces for gender identity? How will it be defined, what are the aims and how can they be designed?

What does he think are the common needs of a 10 year old girl and Frank Maloney? Can he demonstrate that from the perspective of the 10 year old girl?

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:21

AuntieFar · Today 10:01

You are, not for the first time in your life, missing some things.

If you read back I think you'll find I have addressed all legitimate points raised.

Indeed, yours is being responded to solely to correct you since you don't actually have a point.

As I said way back in the opening post, I looked forward to an actual discussion before the Usual Suspects of MNet rolled in to disrupt. You'd be one of those.

The whole board apears to be the 'usual suspect'. You have yet to respond to perfectly reasoned posts. Yes, it must be overwhelming be confronted by so much disagreement, but you did choose to post here knowing full well that most people would disagree with you.

I read the opening paragraph of your post and almost couldn't believe that Billy Bragg had finally admitted to some common sense and understood the issue....turns out he's as deaf to it as he ever was.

That he how he maintains his lifestyle, though, so maybe we should have some sympathy. He's made a living out of playing a role; a stock character....and he hasn't the subtlety of intellect to reflect critically on his own positions.There are many people like him who have spent their whole adult life 'identifying as' a Socialist - and trying to keep up with the latest trends amongst the younger crowd. I first met him when I was 17 and he was a doing a benefit gig for the peace camp I was living at .....that was a very long time ago......and he has changed not one iota since then.

ArabellaScott · Today 10:21

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, &c

Capitalised pre-emptive spite, even.

RareGoalsVerge · Today 10:21

I was surprised to see the words "thoughtful, measured" in your OP @AuntieFar because I'd read such an ignorant, strawman-filled article from BB so recently I wondered if he'd been educating himself. But no, it's the same article. Conflating serious issues about destroying women's rights with the fight for gay rights is disingenuous. Nothing about recognising gay people as equal and valid takes any rights from anyone else. He clearly hasn't actually read the EHRC guidance because he claims it says that trans people have to use the facilities for their biological sex when it very clearly doesn't - it puts the onus on providers to ensure sufficient unisex options so that no one is excluded, and it upholds the rights of trans people to live their lives without discrimination. It is not 'discrimination' to say that trans activists cannot over-rule established rights to single-sex provision when it is proportionate, necessary and valid to do so, as long as universal provision also exists.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:23

I take it we are supposed to agree that it is only 'heterosexual men' that are the real issue, not trans identified men, gay men, or autogynephilic cross dressers.

ArabellaScott · Today 10:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Apollo441 · Today 10:24

And who isn't engaging?

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:24

Great answer AuntieFa! How thoughtful and measured that chain of letters and numbers is 😂

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 10:25

Hahaha you continue to beclown yourself 'auntie'

it's funny how men who imitate women think that by adopting a stereotypical female name or female title somehow obliterates all their innate male behaviour

Im waiting for a 'methinks'

AuntieFar · Today 10:25

Helleofabore · Today 10:17

There are numerous falsities in what Bragg says.

The comparison between Section 28 doesn’t work because sexual orientation is not comparable to the situation where a group of male people demand to be treated as if they were female when they are not and can never be. It is a flawed comparison to make and it only gets made to force team the political campaign of people who are same sex or both sex attracted, some of which are transgender, with the demands of some people to be treated as if they are the sex category they are not.

It is an emotionally manipulative tactic to do so.

Agreed. I obviously don't personally know BB but I think (suspect?) in this instance he is simply seeing 'oppression of rights' without really stopping to consider that (a) not all oppression of rights are comparable with each other, and (b) what he's raging against may not actually be an oppression of rights, when taking a certain viewpoint.

I absolutely agree with you that section 28 is not comparable to what is happening now, and using it as a parallel is actually counter-productive to BB's argument.

That doesn't mean he's wrong, or there is no issue at hand, but he could have framed it better.

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 10:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:24

Great answer AuntieFa! How thoughtful and measured that chain of letters and numbers is 😂

Is not stonewalls updated alphabet list? 😁

ArabellaScott · Today 10:25

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 10:25

Hahaha you continue to beclown yourself 'auntie'

it's funny how men who imitate women think that by adopting a stereotypical female name or female title somehow obliterates all their innate male behaviour

Im waiting for a 'methinks'

Edited

God, how I hate methinks.

AuntieFar · Today 10:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:24

Great answer AuntieFa! How thoughtful and measured that chain of letters and numbers is 😂

It's done its job.

OP posts:
HousePlantEmergency · Today 10:26

No ones been called "Dear" for a while either...
That must be due soon.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 10:27

AuntieFar · Today 10:26

It's done its job.

What job? Please enlighten us.