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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg and the EHRC

167 replies

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

OP posts:
lcakethereforeIam · Today 07:02

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay

And then he stopped singing 😀

spannasaurus · Today 07:08

Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

He hasn't read the SC judgment which made it very clear that trans identified women cannot be banned from female facilities unless a suitable alternative is provided.

BettyFilous · Today 07:14

We get it Billy. You don’t see women as human. Still, I bet this plays gr8 with your target audience.

AuntieFar · Today 07:15

spannasaurus · Today 07:08

Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

He hasn't read the SC judgment which made it very clear that trans identified women cannot be banned from female facilities unless a suitable alternative is provided.

Yeah, I also spotted that one; and it's a fair point.

I do think that's the one area in his post where he misses the mark, although his comment of that was presumably predicated on the idea that most business don't want the cost and/or disruption of arranging an alternative and, thus, the judgement is an exclusion in real terms despite the provision in law.

I'm seeing a lot of business taking the path of least resistance and simply turning their previously divided toilet spaces into unisex.

OP posts:
nutmeg7 · Today 07:17

Nothing about respecting women’s needs or understanding women’s physical vulnerability in here. Massive blind spot.
It’s easy for men to get all self righteous as they give away our privacy, dignity, comfort and safety. It doesn’t cost Billy Bragg anything personally.

BackToLurk · Today 07:18

Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men

So by his logic gay and bisexual men should also be allowed in the ladies. He really isn’t one of the world’s great thinkers, is he?

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 07:18

lcakethereforeIam · Today 07:02

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay

And then he stopped singing 😀

🤣

RowenaCoxwell · Today 07:23

I don’t find it thoughtful or measured, it’s “we just wanna pee” written as an essay.
this article explains better than I ever could:

AuntieFar · Today 07:24

BettyFilous · Today 07:14

We get it Billy. You don’t see women as human. Still, I bet this plays gr8 with your target audience.

Does Mr Bragg say in his statement that he doesn't "see women as human" though? Really? I'm not sure that he does.

But statements like yours are rather indicative of the problem, aren't they? I'd gently suggest that the mental gymnastics that lead you from his statement above to him actually, literally dehumanising women - which he very clearly hasn't - are symptomatic of how many people view the GC movement.

You are, in short, doing the GC community no favours when you react to things as you do. Regardless of whether GC ideology is right or not, you come across as presumptive, aggressive, and lacking in critical thinking. That is a very bad look, and only serves to fuel the fire of the TRAs.

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.

OP posts:
Igmum · Today 07:25

Ahhh so Billy Bragg is thoughtful and measured and anyone who disagrees with him is an awful old hag eh? You’re not biased at all Auntie.

I lived through s28 and these two things are not comparable. We know from the Tavistock doctors who spoke of transing away the gay and from two successive heads of Stonewall (yes Stonewall) that supporting what TRAs describe as trans rights means that single sex attraction is seen as a ‘genital fetish’. Stonewall also literally put on courses to help lesbians overcome their aversion to male genitalia so trans women would be able to shag actual lesbians. That is corrective rape and not even s28 did that.

But Billy is clearly fine with raping lesbians, sterilising gay kids and removing legal support for LGB just as long as trans women are validated.

The Supreme Court judgement in For Women Scotland and the EHRC code see women and lesbians as real human beings with actual rights. This guidance supports those rights without detracting from trans people’s rights. Because trans people never did have the right to invade women’s spaces (and most trans men don’t use men’s toilets).

Is Billy thoughtful and measured? I wouldn’t say so. More importantly he doesn’t think women should have rights and he doesn’t think LGB people should have rights. I do. I really don’t understand why you don’t.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 07:25

BackToLurk · Today 07:18

Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men

So by his logic gay and bisexual men should also be allowed in the ladies. He really isn’t one of the world’s great thinkers, is he?

Also many trans identified males are “heterosexual men”. Silly billy.

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 07:27

Poor old Billy - so near and yet so far:
"Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets" (and women's sport, changing rooms, showers, hospital wards, etc etc...)

CohensDiamondTeeth · Today 07:32

"Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph."

Well since you asked so nicely.

He's talking a pile of shite. Wah wah! Men don't get to run roughshod over women's rights. Boo hoo! Women have rights, the horrible hags! Whine!

Thoughtful and measured, ha!

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 07:34

AuntieFar · Today 07:24

Does Mr Bragg say in his statement that he doesn't "see women as human" though? Really? I'm not sure that he does.

But statements like yours are rather indicative of the problem, aren't they? I'd gently suggest that the mental gymnastics that lead you from his statement above to him actually, literally dehumanising women - which he very clearly hasn't - are symptomatic of how many people view the GC movement.

You are, in short, doing the GC community no favours when you react to things as you do. Regardless of whether GC ideology is right or not, you come across as presumptive, aggressive, and lacking in critical thinking. That is a very bad look, and only serves to fuel the fire of the TRAs.

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.

Any man insistent on wedging men into places where women and girls undress fails to see women as having rights and boundaries. He, like most of those arguing against the SC judgment, see women and girls as being support humans for sad men, required to undress in front of them, while ignoring women's legal rights to safety, privacy and dignity in order to validate these men's delusions.

The "lack of care and consideration" for others is all on the side of those insisting that men must have free access to girls and women undressing.

Igneococcus · Today 07:35

Why is he banging on about section 28?

Igneococcus · Today 07:35

lcakethereforeIam · Today 07:02

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay

And then he stopped singing 😀

That gave him more time to write this interminable waffle.

glaciercherry · Today 07:37

He lost me at the threat to women and girls … comes from heterosexual men.

It comes primarily from men.

Maleness and femaleness is in 99% of cases visible and obvious. This protects women.

He has focussed in his comments on women so obviously recognises that women are the ones at threat. He mentioned how this ruling affects some women, but has entirely failed to mention how it affects over 99% of women; the ones who aren’t trans identified, and how not putting this ruling in place and before this ruling those 99% were affected.

How extremely selective of him. Don’t think we haven’t noticed.

Freysimo · Today 07:40

"Cishet allies"? That's a new one on me. Has BB got a transgender member in his family?

RNApolymerase · Today 07:41

He almost gets it, here.
Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

nutmeg7 · Today 07:44

Igneococcus · Today 07:35

Why is he banging on about section 28?

Because he is stuck in the 1980s fighting Thatcher. He has not thought about women in this other than as supporting players to men who want to present as female.

Nice women don’t raise objections or imagine their feelings are worth anything when weighed against those of a man.

Hope this is gentle, kind and thoughtful enough to be allowed by the OP.

littleburn · Today 07:46

If only BB would recognise that the majority of trans women fall within the ‘heterosexual men’ group that he rightly identifies as a threat to women’s safety.

Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies · Today 07:46

I genuinely thought the OP’s first line was sarcasm.

tripleginandtonic · Today 07:48

I like Billy Bragg but surely he realises that saying transgender people have to wear dresses to access female faces will also be discriminatory.
Sex based is the only way it can be done, and for men to think hard about how the male toilets can be made better for men who are trans.
I'm more than willing to hear what women who are trans feel would make the female facilities better for them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 07:50

RNApolymerase · Today 07:41

He almost gets it, here.
Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

Hahahaha I missed that gem.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 07:51

Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies · Today 07:46

I genuinely thought the OP’s first line was sarcasm.

No. The tone is familiar.