Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg and the EHRC

166 replies

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

OP posts:
OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · Today 09:12

Screamingabdabz · Today 09:10

He’s such a walking stereotype isn’t he? If you typed into ChatGPT ‘show me an embittered middle aged man with 1970s socialist worldview and a dismissive chauvinistic attitude toward women. He has delusions that he’s a musical working class hero so show him wearing a peaky blinders cap, donkey jacket and guitar’ - it would spit him out.

It's interesting how this political movement doesn't attract the functional type of men, isn't it?

Cheese55 · Today 09:12

PaterPower · Today 08:52

But WHY do you think that “transwomen are at risk in male loos?”

The vast majority of TiMs do not pass. Not for a second. So men understand they’re men when they see them in the loo. They might give them a slightly wider berth (if they react at all) but that’s about it. Unless you’re gay or bisexual already, no bloke’s going to look at the average TiM and somehow be overcome with lust. It may be a TiM porn meme, but it’s a complete fantasy.

And let’s assume that one of the unicorns rocks up - a TiM who passes so well that men who see him think he’s female. What’s going to happen?

Unless we’re talking about the roughest pub toilets in the country, late at night with nobody else much around, you might get a few “you’re in the wrong loo, luv” reactions but I’d like to think the average crowd of men in the khazi aren’t suddenly going to support some sort of mass rape or sexual assault out of the blue.

I've always wondered this....

Shedmistress · Today 09:14

If men see other men atthe urinals, a big fucking hint will be that they are at rhe urinals.

If they go into a cubical then apparently these are perfectly safe so no worries.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · Today 09:15

I don’t think there was such a thing as LGBTQ+ in the 80s. LGB yes, but not the identities. I thought they were invented as a maligned-by-everyone conglomeration by Stonewall once S28 had been repealed, in order for Stonewall to keep itself in existence by having new groups of apparently maligned people to campaign for.

Nobody in the 80s called themselves trans or questioning or +. And “queer” was a horrible slur. I’m sure most people reading this know that; just pointing it out for the benefit of younger readers who need to know that BB’s representation of those times isn’t accurate in this regard.

Apollo441 · Today 09:17

AuntieFar · Today 08:25

And this is why the cut and thrust of proper discourse will always elude you, and also why your opinion holds less merit.

If you find it difficult to read the text, that's fair enough, but if you simply - by your own admission - "cannae be arsed" then that reflects badly on you and invalidates any comment(s) you may have on the topic at hand.

Reading, and moreover understanding is very important.

You are the problem. You never reply to questions. We get a one way lecture full of glaringly flawed logic. It is no wonder we never progress. So just answer this and we can all go home;

What is a transwoman?And how can we tell a genuine one from a fake one?

I'll spare you the reminder of the percentage of sex crimes committed by men.

PickleC · Today 09:18

I'd like to be surprised that Billy is another TRA who seemingly never gave a single shiny shit about transmen but suddenly ropes them into arguments when convenient......though generally as support for helping those poor transwomen.....but hey, I'm not.

Because our Billy really does understand who are men and who are women and early on nailed his colours to the mast of listening to/fighting for/sympathising with people who deep, deep down he knows are men. Not that monstrous uppity regiment of women. All the mean, hysterical actual women.

Am personally an out and out lefty but one of the bitterest parts of all this fight has been seeing how left wing men will always prioritise men. Billy being a prime example. And it's so easy for them to still feel like freedom fighting warriors for justice, while getting to kick women down. Something they always had to hide before but can now indulge in and other men will laud them for it.

theilltemperedamateur · Today 09:18

So men can get in by pretending to be transmen. But previously they could get in by pretending to be women.

Beats me why we bother with single-sex services at all.

Providers can make access conditional on proof of sex, though this may be difficult in an informal setting.

Even then, providers who persistently allow or encourage men to use women's services are asking for a sex-discrimination suit. Providing a gender-neutral alternative makes more economic sense.

And it's not our fault that reliable documentary proof of sex has become so limited. This needs fixing.

ApplebyArrows · Today 09:19

Well, maybe the line about men just pretending to be transmen is verging on "thoughtful"; at any rate it's an original argument which none of the rest of it is.

But:

  • couldn't they have just done this anyway? (the pro-trans approach was all "it doesn't matter how you dress, it's about how you feel" but also "you can't tell a person's sex by looking at them", so being stereotypically male in appearance and dress was no reason to exclude anybody)
  • how many men could actually pass as transmen? (putting on a dress and calling yourself a "woman" is a hell of a lot easier than actually achieving convincing female physiology; the trans movement has given us an endless parade of examples of how difficult it is for most men to look female)
  • what do transmen actually want? (I expect a non-trivial number actually prefer the female toilets, at least on occasion, because like other women they are actually scared of real men - so is Bragg even on their side here? the toilet debate, like everything else in the movement, seems to have come heavily from the transwomen side)
Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:19

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

Men don't menstruate, have hot flushes due to menopause, or have leaky breasts due to breastfeeding. Cystitis, thrush, leaky bladder. Women and girls also use toilets, on occasion, to escape unwanted male attention.

We have female only spaces to acknowledge the differences in biology and biogical function between males and females, and to provide some protection for the particular vulnerabilities and sensitivities of female people in relation to male people - in situations of intimate bodily function, undress or in sporting competition.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:20

PickleC · Today 09:18

I'd like to be surprised that Billy is another TRA who seemingly never gave a single shiny shit about transmen but suddenly ropes them into arguments when convenient......though generally as support for helping those poor transwomen.....but hey, I'm not.

Because our Billy really does understand who are men and who are women and early on nailed his colours to the mast of listening to/fighting for/sympathising with people who deep, deep down he knows are men. Not that monstrous uppity regiment of women. All the mean, hysterical actual women.

Am personally an out and out lefty but one of the bitterest parts of all this fight has been seeing how left wing men will always prioritise men. Billy being a prime example. And it's so easy for them to still feel like freedom fighting warriors for justice, while getting to kick women down. Something they always had to hide before but can now indulge in and other men will laud them for it.

YY.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 09:21

Not being a man I can't say for sure but when men go to loo it's a simple case of going in, zip down, togger out, do the business, togger back in, zip up, mission accomplished.
What about a 'transIDing' man, how much hassle is going for a pee for them. I can see how why they might need a cubicle but as men's loo's all come with cubicles there shouldn't be a problem. They don't have to use the urinals if they don't want, no more than the any other man has too.

Theseventhmagpie · Today 09:25

AuntieFar · Today 08:25

And this is why the cut and thrust of proper discourse will always elude you, and also why your opinion holds less merit.

If you find it difficult to read the text, that's fair enough, but if you simply - by your own admission - "cannae be arsed" then that reflects badly on you and invalidates any comment(s) you may have on the topic at hand.

Reading, and moreover understanding is very important.

Could you actually sound any more pious and self righteous?
You are undermining your own- incredibly weak- arguments.
I’m not convinced you are a biological female given the profound naivety of your posts.

KitchenColourandstyle · Today 09:26

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

Firstly the thing about female use of public toilets is we don't 'just pee'. I would list the other things that happen to the female body and why some of them mean we sometimes need to remove some clothing but I suspect you might enjoy that a little too much.

At the start of my grandmother's life time women couldn't vote, during my mum's life time they couldn't continue in many jobs if they were mothers, they couldn't hold a bank account or get a mortgage without a male to vouch for them. They couldn't access reliable birth control if they weren't married.
During my life time they could be legally raped by their husbands, they were banned from playing football on FA pitches. During my niece's life time women were excluded from a number of Olympic events, they were paid less than their male equivalents.
If I have a granddaughter in the next few years it's possible that at the start of her life time Labour won't have had a permanent female leader, woman won't have walked on the moon or seen genuine equality of pay and employment opportunities. * * **

So while section 28 was a disgrace so were (and in some case are) the laws, policies and rules that negatively impacted the lives are generations of women. But Billy appears to disregard the suffering of women.

  • in the UK

** this is a few off the top of my head examples not a comprehensive list there of 100s of others I could have used.

*** any man claiming to be a woman can walk away any time he likes and not have to deal with this shit, women can't, even if they claim to be men the system doesn't let them inherit the title.

TitanicRose · Today 09:26

“but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic“

Opposing the guidance has the effect of further marginalising women at a time when they are in desperate need of public support due to the epidemic of violence against women and girls.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · Today 09:28

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

I got masturbated next to by a trans woman on a regular basis whilst I was naked, head in a bowl, pad after pad on my genitals, removing adult nappies, with severe hyperemesis at work and had no recourse because a woman clearly used their penis next to me throughout August 2018 and April 2019.

Just because YOU might just want to pee, doesn't mean other people don't have ulterior motives.

Are you saying the person who masturbated next to me wasn't a real transwoman? What makes a transwoman a transwoman? How can we tell who the real ones are and who the fake ones are? What do we do if a fake one infiltrated the space?

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 09:28

Theseventhmagpie · Today 09:25

Could you actually sound any more pious and self righteous?
You are undermining your own- incredibly weak- arguments.
I’m not convinced you are a biological female given the profound naivety of your posts.

thry can Never can hide the innate male mansplaining

Pingponghavoc · Today 09:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LastTrainsEast · Today 09:33

"male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, "

They never did. A man in a suit with a beard could walk in secure in the knowledge that if a woman objected he could (a) have her arrested or (b) "mess her face up so bad her kid won't recognise her" (this is a quote)

Apollo441 · Today 09:34

Isn't it time for the OP to reappear on the thread having ignored every point being made and complain how we are all bigots and don't engage?

AgentPidge · Today 09:36

RNApolymerase · Today 07:41

He almost gets it, here.
Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

Yes, I'm confused by that bit. It seems reasonable at first glance, BUT...

(NB the area of trans rights is not my usual habitat and I get confused by the terminology.)
... So he's saying that a person who is born female but now presents as a male must use the female loos, and this is a problem because they're male and therefore a possible predator? But they're not, are they? Because deep down they're female?

LastTrainsEast · Today 09:42

"the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men."

With the slight problem there that reality and police/court reports say that is nonsense.

Men who wish in their little hearts they were women are not only as dangerous as every other man they often carry a deep and abiding hatred for actual women who have what they fantasise about.

More of them are in prison for carrying out their fantasies on women and girls than is proportional to their numbers.

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 09:47

LastTrainsEast · Today 09:42

"the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men."

With the slight problem there that reality and police/court reports say that is nonsense.

Men who wish in their little hearts they were women are not only as dangerous as every other man they often carry a deep and abiding hatred for actual women who have what they fantasise about.

More of them are in prison for carrying out their fantasies on women and girls than is proportional to their numbers.

Indeed plus the "oh heavens we're soooo pretty and in danger from straight men" is a fantasy that exists purely in their heads and more importantly most TW seem to be straight men claiming yo be lesbians

terryleather · Today 09:51

Pingpong, I see you’ve been deleted but I agree with what you said I reckon it has a LOT to do with the situation we currently find ourselves in.

Shedmistress · Today 09:51

The threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men

If trans women were women he'd not have to add that bit, as they would be included in the Women bit.

What a TERF he is.

KitchenColourandstyle · Today 09:54

who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets

Can we have a little think about this? Why do trans identify males have to wear a dress to get into the ladies? Lots of women don't wear skirts/dresses but still enter female spaces. Could it be because people can actually tell the difference between male and female people after all so men wanting to be regarded as women have to do something to try to signify this? If it were actually true that no one can tell what sex anyone is men wanting to use the ladies could wear jeans, joggers, t-shirts, hoodies etc and be seen as female because you can't tell.