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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg and the EHRC

165 replies

AuntieFar · Today 06:59

A thoughtful, measured post by Billy Bragg on the recent EHRC updated code.

Before the Usual Suspects of MN arrive to derail the thread with irrelevant spite and unhelpful commentary, I'd be interested to the opinions of intelligent, thoughtful MNetters on this and, especially, on the eighth paragraph.

Here is his post in full:

"With bitter irony, news that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had published it’s updated code of practice on trans rights began to filter through while I was playing a gig at the UK’s premiere venue for LGBTQ+ culture, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in south London on Thursday night. The new code confirmed that single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms must be used on the basis of biological sex, and that transgender people may not access those that accord with their lived gender.

The gig at the RVT was a celebration of the life of Mark Ashton, founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, whose story is told in the movie Pride. Mark died of AIDS in 1987, so there were many references to the political struggles of that decade, with Margaret Thatcher’s name being loudly booed whenever it came up. Had we been aware of the new EHRC code, it surely would have merited comparison to the notorious Section 28 anti-gay legislation which was referenced by several artists and speakers.

Section 28 of Thatcher’s 1988 Local Government Act prohibited local authorities from "promoting homosexuality" or teaching the acceptability of same-sex relationships. Its aim was to prevent local councils from funding LGBTQ+ positive initiatives, but its effect was to further marginalise the gay community at a time when they were in desperate need of public support due to the AIDS epidemic.

In seeking to dismiss the idea that they could be as fulfilling as heterosexual relationships, the legislation described same-sex couples as perpetrating “pretended family relationships”. This notion that gay and lesbian families were pretending to have fulfilling relationships was a spiteful slur. Despite Thatcher’s best efforts, same-sex relationships came be accepted by the public at large, to the extent that gay marriage became legal in the UK in 2013.

Section 28 was a ridiculous policy, a collection of impractical initiatives whose true aim was to deny the LGBTQ+ community the same respect accorded to other citizens and, worryingly, the new EHRC code seems to be cut from the same cloth. In their on-going campaign to eradicate the trans community from public spaces, anti-trans activists have badgered the EHRC into creating conundrums that, like those of Section 28, will defy practical application.

Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes.

The new code seeks to address this threat by stating that “a trans man may be excluded from women-only services if it’s decided that women may object to his presence.” Never mind the issue of who is going to decide if this criterion has been met - where is the guy supposed to piss? Banned from the men’s loos by law, excluded from the ladies by an arbitrary opinion based rule, what provision does the new code make for this situation?

My sense is that this new code will not withstand scrutiny under the European Convention of Human Rights. Faced with having to provide toilets for the trans community or be sued for discrimination, business will lobby the government to get real and recognise that the threat to women and girls - and to trans women too - comes from heterosexual men. The argument that recognising trans women as women undermines what it means to be female will come to be seen as being as ridiculous as the Section 28 argument that “promoting homosexuality” in schools will turn our kids gay.

Section 28 was finally repealed in 2003. It took fifteen years for people to recognise that it was a discriminatory policy concocted by homophobes. Hopefully, the government will recognise the transphobia implicit in the new EHRC code sooner than that, but in the meantime, our trans and non-binary siblings are going to be even more marginalised that they have been over the past decade.

The mood at the bar of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern after the show was one of anger and dismay at the existential threat posed by the new code. The LGBTQ+ community and their cishet allies need to come together as we did in the 1980s to campaign against this pernicious code and express our solidarity with the trans and non-binary communities whose continued presence in our society has become a form of resistance."

OP posts:
BackToLurk · Today 08:50

RufustheFactualReindeer · Today 08:45

Shes not wrong though…..

Oh hush now. Many people would be as likely to read BB on this as they would Tommy Ten Names on immigration. Once you’ve recognised someone as an ill-informed, one-trick pony, it’s very hard to muster the energy to pay attention to their latest brain fart.

aaaaand that was a reply to @AuntieFar

Wearenotborg · Today 08:51

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

But surely that would be the same for men? There are cubicles in men’s toilets. If all TIM want to do is pee, why can’t they do it in the men’s? If they are unsafe in the men’s, why is there no campaign telling men to be kind? Surely men also don’t care who they pee next to?

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · Today 08:51

AuntieFar · Today 08:25

And this is why the cut and thrust of proper discourse will always elude you, and also why your opinion holds less merit.

If you find it difficult to read the text, that's fair enough, but if you simply - by your own admission - "cannae be arsed" then that reflects badly on you and invalidates any comment(s) you may have on the topic at hand.

Reading, and moreover understanding is very important.

Ok, Dad.

RufustheFactualReindeer · Today 08:52

BackToLurk · Today 08:50

Oh hush now. Many people would be as likely to read BB on this as they would Tommy Ten Names on immigration. Once you’ve recognised someone as an ill-informed, one-trick pony, it’s very hard to muster the energy to pay attention to their latest brain fart.

aaaaand that was a reply to @AuntieFar

Edited

Think you’ve misunderstood what im saying….

PaterPower · Today 08:52

Hopefulsalmon · Today 07:53

As someone who campaigned against Section 28, I find this patronising and insulting. Billy's thinking and arguments are muddled - for example, many trans identified men are heterosexual and pose an equal risk as 'normal' men to females.
I'm not anti trans and do feel transwomen are at risk in male loos but that's men's problem to solve, increasing the risk to women isn't the answer. Why isn't he (and all the other trans allies) campaigning for male loos to be more inclusive?

But WHY do you think that “transwomen are at risk in male loos?”

The vast majority of TiMs do not pass. Not for a second. So men understand they’re men when they see them in the loo. They might give them a slightly wider berth (if they react at all) but that’s about it. Unless you’re gay or bisexual already, no bloke’s going to look at the average TiM and somehow be overcome with lust. It may be a TiM porn meme, but it’s a complete fantasy.

And let’s assume that one of the unicorns rocks up - a TiM who passes so well that men who see him think he’s female. What’s going to happen?

Unless we’re talking about the roughest pub toilets in the country, late at night with nobody else much around, you might get a few “you’re in the wrong loo, luv” reactions but I’d like to think the average crowd of men in the khazi aren’t suddenly going to support some sort of mass rape or sexual assault out of the blue.

RufustheFactualReindeer · Today 08:53

I really dont like this whole edit after ive read and it formulated an awesome reply thing 😀

ExitPursuedByABare · Today 08:53

Oh Lordy is Billy Bragg still at it.

nutmeg7 · Today 08:54

Sausagenbacon · Today 08:45

Goodness, how unwomanly of you! 😂
Yes, obviously, as a woman, i should carefully unpick BB's (such an intellectual giant!) Sermon with more reverence.

You should always treat everything men say with respect, deference, and preferably ladylike applause. If you can’t do that, then you must exhibit dignified silence.

What you must never do is share what you really think and feel, or apply any logical questioning to his great pronouncements.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · Today 08:55

I don’t understand paragraph six, especially the final sentence. I’ve read it several times but nope.

His diatribe is also peppered with nonsensical language such as “cishet” and “assigned at birth gender” so overall BB’s writing wouldn’t pass the scrutiny of the Campaign for Plain English.

PS does he ever stop blathering on about Thatcher and the 80s? If Thatcher hadn’t ever been in power, BB would have no raison d’être. Now there’s a thought.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 08:57

He wilfully over-looks and minimises the prime concern, which is men in female only facilities......by using trans identified women to show what horrible 'phobes' the terfs are.

BackToLurk · Today 08:58

RufustheFactualReindeer · Today 08:53

I really dont like this whole edit after ive read and it formulated an awesome reply thing 😀

Quick. Edit this

BettyBooper · Today 08:58

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

Which is why you don't get it.

Women are there also for common biological functions that solely affect females.

It's strange you don't know this, isn't it?

BackToLurk · Today 08:58

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · Today 08:55

I don’t understand paragraph six, especially the final sentence. I’ve read it several times but nope.

His diatribe is also peppered with nonsensical language such as “cishet” and “assigned at birth gender” so overall BB’s writing wouldn’t pass the scrutiny of the Campaign for Plain English.

PS does he ever stop blathering on about Thatcher and the 80s? If Thatcher hadn’t ever been in power, BB would have no raison d’être. Now there’s a thought.

Billy Bragg: Thatcher’s greatest crime.

RufustheFactualReindeer · Today 08:59

BackToLurk · Today 08:58

Quick. Edit this

Mate…

i am so not quick enough for that 😀

done it….

bonfireoftheverities · Today 09:00

OP is hilariously bad at this.

Sausagenbacon · Today 09:01

Almost like a reverse.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 09:01

Is he also focusing on toilets in order to trivialise the matter, distracting from the fact that women are fighting to regain the rights that have been removed from them by this ideology and that it goes well beyond single sex toilets. Casting women as small minded prudes, who are old stick in the muds.

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 09:05

AuntieFar · Today 08:23

Banging on about "where women and girls undress" in regards to cubicled toilets is as hackneyed as it is unconvincing; and a feeble counterpoint.

I'm not sure how you use the Ladies toilets, but personally I go in, pee, and leave. I don't really care who the woman in the next cubicle is, or her policies or politics, or how she identifies.
I'm there solely for a common biological function of all humans.

There's a reason why extreme transactivists are determined that the discussion focuses only on toilets and delight in talking about how they use them. The general public are horrified at men who insist that teenage girls and women must share changing rooms, showers, hospital wards etc with men.

Not sure if you've read this before but maybe give it a go? You might find it a challenge but as you say upthread "Reading, and moreover understanding is very important".

labourheartlands.com/trans-rights-the-conjuring-trick-at-the-toilet-door/

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · Today 09:06

Any mention of women and their needs, feelings, intersectionality, any equality of consideration at all.....? No....?

Gosh what a surprise. Moving on.

The ECtHR is going to baffle these men, it really is. They just cannot compute that women have rights too, and can't just be tools in men's lives. It doesn't fit inside their heads for some reason.

Pingponghavoc · Today 09:06

I bet Robin ince read that with a tear running down his cheek.

And it gave Stuart Lees some ideas for his next Christmas lecturing letter to his fans.

PaterPower · Today 09:08

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · Today 08:55

I don’t understand paragraph six, especially the final sentence. I’ve read it several times but nope.

His diatribe is also peppered with nonsensical language such as “cishet” and “assigned at birth gender” so overall BB’s writing wouldn’t pass the scrutiny of the Campaign for Plain English.

PS does he ever stop blathering on about Thatcher and the 80s? If Thatcher hadn’t ever been in power, BB would have no raison d’être. Now there’s a thought.

In a parallel universe, would he have remained as animated about the same policies if the person pushing them into law had been male?

Even Tebbit’s been largely forgiven (or at least forgotten).

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:08

AuntieFar · Today 07:24

Does Mr Bragg say in his statement that he doesn't "see women as human" though? Really? I'm not sure that he does.

But statements like yours are rather indicative of the problem, aren't they? I'd gently suggest that the mental gymnastics that lead you from his statement above to him actually, literally dehumanising women - which he very clearly hasn't - are symptomatic of how many people view the GC movement.

You are, in short, doing the GC community no favours when you react to things as you do. Regardless of whether GC ideology is right or not, you come across as presumptive, aggressive, and lacking in critical thinking. That is a very bad look, and only serves to fuel the fire of the TRAs.

Please, please take time to think carefully and considerately about your responses next time.

I think you are failing to read your own posts.

BB only acknowledges any negative impact upon women by using an example of a trans identified woman being denied access to male loos ( many don't actually use male toiilets, anyway), or being confronted in the women's toilets for appearing masculine.

He can't bring himself to acknowledge the needs or comfort of the overwhelmingly vast majority of female people, at all.....they almost don't exist as actors with any investment in the issue. It is only the 'special people'...the ' trans' people whose needs and feelings must be considered.

He's an idiot who has shaped his entire adult identity around being a radical lefty, and in attempting to prolong that gig he has embraced every last tenet of faith of the so called 'progressive crowd'. -without any attempt at critical thinking at all.

Do you recall the time he tried to put both Julie Bindel and Ayyan Hirsi Ali straight on matters of women's established rights? Utterly embarrassing, if only he had any self awareness.

Tonissister · Today 09:08

"Determined to keep men out of women’s toilets, the demands of anti-trans activists have been met in the new code which declares that an individual must use the toilet that corresponds to the gender to which they were assigned at birth. So trans men are now banned by law from using the men’s toilets while women’s toilets must now be used by assigned female at birth individuals who present as male. Thus male predators, who previously had to dress in women’s clothing to gain access to female toilets, can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes."

Can anyone explain his alleged logic here.
Thus male predators who previously had to dress in women's clothing... So he is admitting that male predators do dress as women in order to access female spaces, but that's okay because Trans trumps Women in the pecking order?

But then: ...can now stroll in wearing their everyday male clothes
Is he suggesting women can't tell the difference between a man and a transman? Or is he suggesting transmen are predators on women?

He seems to be suggesting in the good old days men could pop on a dress to predate freely thus giving women the sporting chance of spotting they were men but with no right to challenge them. Now, we are more at risk because trans men and male predators can't be told apart.

Screamingabdabz · Today 09:10

He’s such a walking stereotype isn’t he? If you typed into ChatGPT ‘show me an embittered middle aged man with 1970s socialist worldview and a dismissive chauvinistic attitude toward women. He has delusions that he’s a musical working class hero so show him wearing a peaky blinders cap, donkey jacket and guitar’ - it would spit him out.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:10

BackToLurk · Today 08:58

Billy Bragg: Thatcher’s greatest crime.

Him, and John Cooper Clarke.

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