Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

We should have T Shirts... "Karen's Angels: you talkin' to me? F.A.F.O."

But the same can be said for most misogynistic terms.

What women are dealing with is not new, just because someone has found a new term to use.

I think this is all true.

But also, it's a joke, it's a meme. So if you don't find it funny you're missing the joke, and don't have a sense of humour. You can't win.

Thank you for your challenges.
I will preface this by sharing that I haven't slept for 36 hours and still can't. Consequently, I have no spare mental energy for tact. Happy to read others being rather beautifully gentle.

This is a robust feminist forum, proudly feared and despised by misogynists across the English-speaking world. While I've been politically active for women's liberation (let's call it what it is) since 1971 and a regular on here since 2008, I still learn plenty from women here and relish the forum's collective strength.

I love the way this strength of spirit and rigour of thought extends across Mumsnet's other boards and the wider world, both online and off.

I've had a lot of arguments here. I expect to. Real feminism can't be fluffy and nice, we'd never fucking get anywhere. Fortunately, we can be very funny. This board is extremely supportive to women facing patriarchy's more vicious onslaughts and we have made real, significant differences.

In order to face patriarchy (and win, eventually), womanhood needs determination, persistence, resilience, cojones - or ovaries, if you like - pragmatism and a fuckton of humour. And other things, but let's stick with these. You introduced yourself as an FWR regular and described yourself as assertive, confident, unafraid, etc. Great! It's a privilege to know you!

You then segued into what FWR used to call a 'Waahmbulance call' which, as far as I can see with my admittedly tired brain, amounts to the very normal disorientation experienced by women as they age out of patriarchy's desirability sector and, in fairly short order, get battered by varying manifestations of the female reproductive span. People start dying, older relatives start needing you to look out for them instead of the other way around. Normal. So very normal.

There are five or six threads on this every week at MN, mostly in the main boards. It can be very startling indeed - it was for me, my life turned inside out all of a sudden. Many women have it far worse than I did; many others skip through it almost untouched. I sympathise with the disorientated 50+ woman, believe me, and I've even run campaigns on it.

I couldn't understand why you, a thinking, analytical feminist, chose to hang your recent entry into this phase on a quasi-intellectualised discomfort with a stupid trope. I still don't. I'd expect this sort of thing from a much younger feminist whose worldview doesn't yet extend far beyond TikTok and a few Medium articles. Not from someone like you.

Does Karen bother you more than hag, terf, bitch, witch, whatever the hell they're calling JKR this month? If it does, it might be interesting (to you, perhaps others here) to meditate on why.

Was it really fucking Karen that bothered you, or were you fixating on that to avoid facing facts about the life changes you're approaching?

.... And I kept thinking "Where the hell are your cojones, woman?" You lamented the loss of your assertive, confrontational capacities in your OP, then kept saying it wasn't about that really and you didn't want to hear it could be part of a life-stage challenge that wise women accept as a growth phase.

You'll be ever so pleased to hear this thread's still off my active list and I'm about to try a slight co-codamol overdose in hopes of giving myself a rest. With luck, I'm gone for the remains of the day & night 😴 Hope your thread develops in a way that builds your strength.

@NoGarlic

You're putting an awful lot of effort into telling me you don't understand me, expect more from me at my age, my feelings are daft, it's just sexist memes, and I'm generally pretty contemptuous in your view.

I'm not sure why.

But thanks for your input.

This thread’s a roller coaster, for sure. Or a merry go round, perhaps.

So many things popped into my head but sadly they’ve drivelled back out before I could note them.

In terms of how to proceed? Option whichever- arm yourself with facts and keep on pushing through. I don’t think there are other options that work, they just diminish us and our confidence.

Is it only men? Absolutely not. In fact it’s mainly women, in my experience- but my experience is woman dominated so perhaps not self fulfilling.

This is really important, and a good spot (sorry I’ve lost track of who said what)-
“The inherent problem with the Karen thing is that in order to challenge it you need to exhibit further "karen" behaviours? So it's gaslighting in its finest because you can't tackle it without complaining about it? Which is exactly why it's SO effective in shutting women down.”

And the sweet little old lady thing? DM does that and it gets her a long way. She’s about 4’6” and 87 so she’s well positioned. But she’s a feckin’ tartar! Terrifying. She is probably the person who the meme would best fit- totally unreasonable expectations of service and standards. People tend to do what she wants because life is not worth living if you don’t. Then they avoid her if at all possible.

So I suppose some of us do fit the stereotype.

Sisterhood? My name is Karen - imagine how I feel seeing women like you perpetuating the "stereotype". There is no sisterhood here.

It is extremely misogynistic and ageist so just piss off with your "I don't want to be labelled..." crap. I have no voice at all because as soon as someone sees my name the comments start, regardless of my opinion.

Maybe I should try the nice little old lady route...but I'd think I'd last 5 minutes!

I'm not perpetuating, it I'm referring to the fact it exists and how shit it is.

I'm sorry you experience it so acutely because it's your name 💐
Someone else earlier mentioned they also experience that because it's their name.

It's absolutely appalling that it's developed into this meme and women are feeling denigrated because of their names.

I also said earlier it's a very beautiful name. Simple and elegant imo.

But you highlight the point it's very real and it does impact women.

Especially women called Karen like you.

And less so us disagreeable confrontational older women.

But some women seem think it's not true, or we shouldn't care, or we're a bit pathetic for caring apparently.

In the US.

In the UK it is just used to shut women of a certain age down who dare to have an opinion.

I do like the pp's suggestion of "if we didn't have Dicks we wouldn't need Karens". I will remember that one.

Who has said it isn’t true? What I see some people saying is that if someone lets that change their behaviour, they are enabling it to continue, because that’s exactly what it’s intended to do. You seem offended by that view, but IMO it’s a valid take on what people who use the name as an insult are doing: trying to shut older women down,

As an older woman myself, I’m very aware that that’s a thing, with or without the use of the name Karen. I’m long past caring what men think, but I do find it rather painful from young women. The solidarity from us is taken for granted (and willingly given) but we often get precious little of it in return.

That said, I’m at a loss as to what you expect posters to suggest you do, other than ignore people’s desire to shut you down and to go ahead as you would have 20 years ago. So I don’t really get why you seem to be taking that advice as scepticism or even a personal attack on you.

Yes I challenge it whenever I see it.

People on this thread.
Said its not really a thing in the UK.
Said they're not aware of it.

If you read my posts you'd see it's not about anyone saying it directly. It's about perception. And you can't challenge it without reinforcing it.

Anyway. Yes the thread is now circular.
And tiresome because of it.

Do you want to change this mindset/be able to keep being assertive and confident though, or did you just want to offload /sympathy/commiserations?

I think the 'Karen' mentality is also an out for people who, at least on some level, know they're a bit shit at their job. I've worked in public-facing roles, and yes, it can get tiresome dealing with difficult clients/customers, but apart from the deliberately obnoxious/scary, it is part of the role. People can be anxious or have misconceptions about certain aspects when spending their money.

On Being Treated as a Karen
Last Friday I went out for a meal to a pub.
I am a pretty easy going person, my politics left wing, verging on what people would call ‘woke’; but I am middle aged, I’m not good looking, and I’m not cool.

The young and good looking people serving behind the bar just saw a Karen, before I had said or done anything at all.
Their bigotry was out there for all to see, as subtle as a brick, but no one seemed to notice or to care.
I stood quietly waiting to be served while the young man smiled and flirted with the customers in front of me.
When I got to the bar he instantly turned off his smile like a tap, becoming cold faced with a hard unfriendly stare. He looked at me as though I had no right to be there.

I had been in a happy warm mood, as I generally am, but under this grey light my smile disappeared.
He looked at the young women serving with him, a sideways look, as if to say ‘Look it’s one of these!’.
He asked for my table number, and when I didn’t know it he looked up at the ceiling, and told me in a cold voice that he couldn’t serve me food without a table number. I understand that that is true, but what was upsetting was the manner in which it was said.
So I went back and got my table number.
And he made me queue all over again.
When eventually I got served, he asked if there were any allergies in our group. Unfortunately I’m lactose intolerant, I really can’t help this, but it seemed to be taken as a personal affront, confirming absolutely the negative stereotype he had already formed. He told me that I needed to read the waivers on allergies before I could order, and gestured that I should move away from the bar. I was ordering vegan food that I knew wouldn’t have milk in, so I just said that I had already read it.

He looked at me as if I was sitting in a gutter.
He then looked again at the young women either side of him, who gave him knowing and sympathetic smiles.
I was served, but when the food was delivered by the women who had been at the bar earlier, they blanked me completely, making no eye contact, not smiling, turning their backs towards me, but making a show of being smiley and friendly to others in the room.
There is a history of men being dismissive of older women, just watch Snow White or read Roald Dahl, but it is so disheartening to see younger women colluding with this.

Who cares if you are called a 'Karen'? Age and sex have nothing to do with having an opinion or correcting things which are wrong. And if not supporting misogyny you are enabling it by not speaking when you want/need to. Let women speak. Stand up for women.

Who cares if you are called a 'Karen'?

To me that's like saying who cares about sexism and ageism. I do care.

I agree. I certainly care - I'm not prepared to accept a sexist and ageist term.

I've been reading this and feeling reminded of 2 past memories. I am 70 percent aware of why they're coming back, but there is a gap where thoughts are not filled in yet.

The first is a point where I was in my mid-20s and met one of my boyfriend's former teachers and his wife at a dinner. My university course had been the same as the teacher's career subject. Both teacher and wife were now recently retired.

It was a fairly fun evening, and conversation was good, but the teacher's wife was (to my ears) really spiky and dismissive, sarcastic at times, of the first-out-of-uni job I was doing, in pretty much every tone, response, and short statement she came out with, despite there being a lot of predictable talk about 'what it is you (and bf) do', what studies and related travel had been chosen, and so on. There was style and wit there, but it felt like I was a fag butt that was very close to a stiletto. I didn't expect really warm vibes, but I was surprised and not appreciative of what it was that for some reason, I got. It might just have been style but I think many people can feel when you are on the end of a persistently combative and antagonistic approach, even if someone's already sick of you on no more than the basis, maybe, of a perceived universal characteristic.

The other thing in this vein is the dynamic between Bridget Jones and colleague Perpetua in the film. I seem to remember Bridget turning and saying "Perpetua..." in a way that drips heart sinking when even given an overture for a conversation with the older colleague. That name is not without a lot of baggage, I suspect. Bridget's inner voice sums her up as "a fat-ass old bag who spends her time bossing me around." But it's Perpetua who calls out the boss's bullshit and is the 'Have some self-respect' voice on the shoulder at the crucial moment. She is, on the basis of age, out of the zone of 'Be nice, (as well as good at the work), fall in line, look enticing if you want to be rewarded.'

I haven't rtft but I’ve been called a Karen several times when challenging a man or men over their behaviour.
I’m in my 50s, zero fucks given. One of my close friends is called Karen. Nice enough if dated name. I’d rather be called a Karen and call out shitty behaviour than keep quiet.

It's what the term is designed to do: silence women of a certain age. I can't stand it.

Try remembering that anyone who calls you a Karen is borderline sexist, racist and misogynistic. (As said by an employment tribunal judge.) They are also the sort of person who feels entitled to decide what a minor error is from your point of view and feels so self-entitled that they think you shouldn't speak to a manager about them.

It's another one of those daft things like the newspaper articles about what we MUST wear if we're not to commit the hideous crime of being old. Because, in their limited view, being old is terrible. Why should we listen to them? If you can borrow a toddler for an afternoon, then you'll soon realise that shouting and stamping their feet and calling people names doesn't make them right. And, best of all, you can give the toddler back and ignore the immature name callers.

I know exactly what you mean about the Karen insult. It's still all over the place. On our local Facebook group, a woman posted that she'd been driving down a residential street when kids threw a water bomb through the window of her car. It startled her and could have caused an accident. But a bloke responded, about her - 'Karens gonna Karen'. In other words, 'women, shut up!'

Does Karen bother you more than hag, terf, bitch, witch, whatever the hell they're calling JKR this month? If it does, it might be interesting (to you, perhaps others here) to meditate on why.

It's a different grade of insult. A man can use it and still feel smugly progressive. A young woman can use it and not recognise she's being misogynist, because after all the target is supposedly entitled and possibly racist. 'Hag', 'bitch' and 'witch' reflect back more strongly on the person using the word. 'Terf' is a political insult, and savage mainly because the person using has very hateful feelings about anyone questioning their ideology.