Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

Are you in the UK?
UK usage of this term is pure misogyny which you are participating in.
Use your anger against anyone who might call you such a sexist insult to give you confidence.

Either a situation needs to be addressed or it doesn’t. The sex and age of the challenger is irrelevant.

And stop watching the videos, so your algorithm changes.

Yes I'm in the UK.

I could do without the 'you are participating in misogyny crap' thanks.
I'm a regular in FWR, a feminist, and struggling with something, and thought maybe other women may understand or have experienced something similar.

Or at least empathise.

Yay for the sisterhood 🙄

This reminds me of black women not wanting to speak up for fear of being labelled “the angry black woman”

Thank you.
Yes maybe it's the same phenomenon or experince?

Women reign yourself in so men find you acceptable.

This seems misogyny 101 to me:

Women are responsible for feeling bad when they fear men or the culture denigrate them.

I think there’s a known phenomenon where black women are seen as angry, argumentative etc, when raising the same type and volume of issue/complaint as compared to white women raising the same thing. If you see what I mean. So maybe there’s similar for women of a certain age, if the same things was raised by a man or a younger women it would be accepted but raised by an older women seen as a “Karen”.

But the very use of the term destroys any respect you may have had for their opinion, surely? There’s no need to feel concerned about how such a person sees you!
Perhaps it’s a personality thing. When someone puts themselves over a certain line, I lose all interest in their approval. ‘Call me what you like, you’re a sexist prick,’ basically.

Please note the ‘you’ is aimed at them, not you op!

It is just another way of trying to shut women down - a version of STFU if you like. Aimed at middle aged women who are more likely to have strong views and be assertive. Extremely misogynistic regardless of who is saying it, and that is what I would say to anyone saying it to me. As a PP says stop looking it up on line.

You were worried that your conveyancer would call you a Karen? Aside from the implausibility of any professional wanting to even get into something so obviously irrelevant to the business at hand, if anyone I was paying for called me something other than Ms. Bridget or Bridget (if we were on a first name basis), I'd be looking for someone else to provide that service.

"Karen" also takes me time travelling back to 2021. Are you sure that's the term you're afraid of? Perhaps it was a more recent slur you were thinking of?

But you are reining yourself in, and shouldn’t need to! That’s my point!

The entire point is to disempower women. I suppose we should just be grateful that it’s just name calling and social media shaming and not being denounced as witches to be tortured and murdered as happened to a lot of assertive middle aged women in the past.

I hate that it’s working, but I’m feeling the pressure too in my fifties.

Yep. You're actually fighting against what you've probably been taught all your life, smile, be kind, don't disagree. FWIW by the time you reach 60 you won't give a flying fuck 😬

I know that.

But i am and I'm struggling with it.

'Just stop doing it'. Great problem solved thanks.

Read the autobiographies of Kathy Burke and Jo Brand. They are assertive women of a certain age and I don't think anyone's calling them Karen. It's not even a UK thing.

Scary. It’s almost like we all need to be quiet and behave.

I say we continue to speak up with vigour!

Can't /won't take you seriously using the term Karen
Come back when you have re worded what you want to say without being miscygonic

Anyone who use then term Karen is a misogynist arsehole

I wasn't worried he'd call me a Karen. I was concerned that would be what he'd think and it would therfore make me less effective in raising issues than my husband.

I'm not searching for Karen. But yes the meme is alive and thriving for anyone who thinks it's gone away.

Shorthand angry middle aged lady.

Have you read Victoria Smith’s “Hags”? It is all about the demonisation of older women, and she talks about the use of the term Karen as a modern version of “witch,” “hag,” etc. That is, it’s a short hand for “older woman whose opinion I, as a progressive sort of person, am allowed to dismiss and indeed attack.”

I actually thought women on fwr would be sympathetic to the impact that misogynistic memes can have on women's behaviour and feelings.

Guess I was wrong.

I'm 62, I'm confident and assertive. I don't give a shit if anyone dislikes my opinions, I will share them if I feel the need to do so, and I have no issue with being confrontational if needs must. I'd rather not, but if I have to, then I will. If anyone dared to call me a 'Karen' (god, how I hate that useage) I'd call them on it.

OP, don't stop being your assertive self for fear of what others might think of you. Be the confident, assertive woman you say you are and stand up for yourself! It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of you or how you come across.

Thank you.
I remember discussions of this at the time.

I was wondering if I'm also more conscious of it because as I'm older I'm also judged ugly/fat/sad which additionally makes being assertive more unacceptable to men.

So the hag slur fits too.

My stock retort is 'if we didn't have Dicks, we wouldn't need Karens'.

Embrace the Kazza, I say - it means women who no longer GAF and stand their ground. If anyone does call you Karen then file them under 'people whose opinion I do not value'. Tits out, loud and proud.

@ModiglianisHat I’m really not saying ‘just stop doing it’!

It’s about being likeable I think. When we let go of that, some of the worries go too. Is the sociology/psychology term ‘amiability’? I remember Jorden Peterson referring to it at some point in a video

The fear of an insult like ‘Karen’ comes from amiability, I would think.

Have you tried embracing your inner hag? I arrived here a long time ago under the impression it was better to be nice. I had my arse handed to me, and learned that there’s no particular requirement or responsibility women be nice. It was revolutionary.