Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

The thing is, do you think his attitude was due to you being a woman of a certain age (hence the Karen association in your mind) or because you are a woman period? If it was the second, would that still hold you back from reacting how you wanted?

This is a great point actually, and I think it's important that we draw a distinction between people who will use the term stupidly/lazily and people who actually have an agenda and are wilfully using it to shut women down because I know which I'd rather give energy to if that makes sense?

I'm reading from your posts op as if he hasn't actually called you a Karen but his response was such that made you feel that way and it's the closest phrasing you have to explain it. So if we took the 'Karen' element out of the equation altogether and treated this as an isolated incident I think you'd probably be left feeling that this is a man who isn't used to being corrected by women or who struggles to tolerate it because he's actually just deeply misogynistic. And you are 100% entitled to call that shit out every single time provided you feel safe and have the emotional bandwidth to do so.

I think what you've said about how it can also feel heavy and leaving you doubting yourself is very valid so maybe what you need is a bit of self care whatever that looks like for you to rebuild the bit of resilience his misogyny took from you.

I feel like I've been a bit slow on the uptake on this thread and that comment just connected the dots for me!

I'm not sure tbh. It's definitely something I'm more aware of as I age but I don't know to what degree he's aware of it.

But I think the Karen meme has become quite mainstream in the culture as an accepted short hand for an age old misogyny and I do feel my awareness of that is affecting how I interact. Sadly.

There's a women earlier in the thread who is called Karen and now feels like she can never complain, is also so sad.

Denigrating women, as the Karen meme does, impacts how we feel and how we are treated.

I was shocked that you credited an ageist, sexist meme, which insults millions of women called Karen, with the power to undermine your confidence.

Just returning to this comment ^^

Surely you would expect 'sexist memes which insult millions of women' would 'undermine women's confidence' 🤔

That shouldn't be a surprise should it?

And it's not women's fault if they do feel undermined by it.

And the feeling of being undermined is not because of our hormones.

Of course it does, just like any other heavily promoted stereotypes, and the Karen one was extremely prevalent for quite a few years. We are all influenced by these things to some degree or another. This one specifically though, hit you pretty hard . So I’m asking why. If it was the other stereotype of the “cute, little old lady” with a patronising smile and metaphorical pat on the head , what reaction would that get from you? If you knew for sure his attitude was directed at women, because they were women (regardless of their age) , what reaction would that get from you?

I think this sums it up. Dogged determination to not back down, press on, whether they like it or not, works only when the power balance lies in your favour.
Often, it doesn't, even where you'd imagine it would, for example, where you are the customer. There are many ways a service provider can occupy the power position, and this is exacerbated for some groups of women, those who are not wealthy, who are not knowledgeable about the service or their rights, those who have had their confidence eroded through compound disadvantage.
Many women adapt their style and behaviour to get the results they want.

I always assume everyone's seen this true story of Philadelphia co-workers, Nicole & Martin, who accidentally swapped email signatures one day, then continued it as an experiment for a week. But it was 2017! I'm showing me age - you may not know it, so here it is:

https://time.com/4699426/female-colleague-male-email-sexism/
and
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/sexism-email-experiment-woman-boss-refuses-to-believe-gender-discrimination-a7626501.html

Takeaway: You don't have to be a 'Karen' to be taken less seriously, just female. But we knew that, didn't we.

Hmm...I don't know.
I'll think about it.

I guess cute little old lady stereotype doesn't worry me as I know I don't fit it 😁

So there's something about the idea that's there's a derogatory stereotype and I may embody it and undermine my goals if I do.

Maybe it was the same when I was younger to some degree, but younger women can I think suffer from different stereotypes as sexual objects or being treated as naive children.

They don't provoke quite the disgust us post menopausal women can when we're being disagreeable.

It's an interesting question though. Thank you. I'm going to think more about it.

It seems to me, and I might be wrong, that OP is more comfortable to tackle generalised misogyny, but struggles with “Karen misogyny “ . It’s worth exploring why, and how she can change that.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'tackle'?

I'm happy to discuss generalised misogyny but yes at the moment I've become particularly aware of the impact of Karen misogyny on me.

How she can change that is very definitely the Q as I see it.

I mean, she doesn't have to. I thought she came here asking that, then it seemed perhaps she wanted some other kind of exploration.

Surely the inherent problem with the Karen thing is that in order to challenge it you need to exhibit further "karen" behaviours? So it's gaslighting in its finest because you can't tackle it without complaining about it? Which is exactly why it's SO effective in shutting women down.

Whereas other forms of misogyny are not easy to call out but easier in some respects. Because the standing up for yourself isn't the thing under attack with you being blamed for it in the first place?

Whatnow?
What do I 'have to change'?

How I 'struggle with “Karen misogyny"'??

I think struggling with Karen misogyny is perfectly reasonable.

Jesus wept.

It seems any way you want to cut this I'm at fault.

I came here sharing something difficult and asked 'Am I alone?'

That's all.

You then posted some pretty shitty responses dismissing my experience and belittling me and now you're back to tell me again how wrong I am.

Why?

Excellent point.

Definitely some truth in this I think.

When I was younger I didn't have such an issue because I didn't fit the stereotype, I could overcome it by being assertive and rejecting open objectification.

It might have been more difficult for me when younger if I was a more agreeable personality where I could have felt I was being judged as weak and steam rollered.

Maybe the intersection of my personality with the sexist meme is creating specific difficulty for me now?
And as you say I can't challenge it directly without reinforcing it.

I meant that if someone displayed misogynistic attitudes/behaviours/language on the basis that you are a woman , you’d be (or would’ve been) confident to stand your ground/react to it . Whereas now, with the added weight of the Karen “awareness “ you’re less likely to do that.

Apologies if my impression is wrong.

Why do you believe you fit the Karen stereotype specifically though?

Assertive, not afraid of conflict and challenge.

Those characteristics in a middle aged women are often seen as Karen.

Yes because as @Lavender14 said in the case of Karen misogyny challenging it reinforces it.

I do think it's a case of deciding what you choose to give energy to. It's like the old but wise saying "you can't argue with stupid". Though I know this is something more sinister than stupid.

One thing I've learnt recently in work is that identifying another person's agenda is really important because if they're just genuinely ill informed on something then a conversation can be worth having and they'll be open to the learning in that, but if they have their own agenda you'll never change their mind but will drain yourself in the process. And I do think the best medicine for the Karen thing is just living authentically in the world and raising the next generation with better critical thinking skills. Then hopefully it will eventually die out. In the meantime you focus on filling your own cup so you can go on doing what you need to in life.

I do think in some ways it's interesting how certain movements like the manosphere and incel movements are emboldening people to be more open with their misogyny. Heavier for women to exist around for sure but in some ways I think it helps us identify those people quicker which is maybe in itself not a bad thing as we can then deal with them with a more informed approach more quickly.

I wasn't aware this 'Karen' business was still a thing?

Honestly, who cares anyway? People who say and think in such ways are not worth the worry. Surely one of the benefits/gains of being a an older, more mature woman is that you aren't so beholden to other people's opinions of you.

Just ignore it. People say all sorts of things about other people; especially on social media.

Is it just men who are using this term?

I think a lot of people get dismissed like this and the answer is just to go armed with facts and evidence and keep pushing. Another example is doctors dismissing new mums as paranoid and dramatic when they take their kids for something.

Assertive, not afraid of conflict and challenge

I think I understand now why you are so uncomfortable with this stereotype. You have always been assertive (demonstrated on this thread!) which has been a positive in the past but now you feel uncomfortable being assertive because you have reached the age of the stereotype. Is this it?

Those personality traits are positives and always will be, whatever your age. (as long as you are polite and respectful).Changing your behaviour does not guarantee a more positive outcome.

So I would channel your inner - 'This is who I am - take it or leave it'. What's the point of watering down your personality because of some idiotic stereotype? Life is too short!