Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

Thanks for the encouragement.

But what people think of you does matter in achieving outcomes sometimes.

It would be great if people could dismiss you as a hag and it not matter. But often it does.

Yes, I know what it means/stands for as a slur.

I don't know what to tell you. If it were me, since you can never know what's going on in someone else's mind, you would never know if your conveyancer thought that about you or not. I would base my opinions and actions on what they actually said and did.

If you're happy with the work, then why would you even care what they thought? If they hate you, or think you're a "Karen" and it affects their work to your detriment, then just get another solicitor.

I didn't want to get another solicitor. I needed him to be challenged and address it.

If what men think about women had no real world impact we wouldn't need feminism.

I can decide not to care but it doesn't mean being seen this way doesn't negatively impact women like me.

Have you tried embracing your inner hag?

I don't think I have. I think I'm struggling with that. Both being perceived that way and how it could work against me in some situations.

A Karen is what inadequate misogynists call assertive woman.

Be more devious, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Nobody will ever call JK Rowling a Karen.

I don't feel obliged to endorse misogynist language. I never have, whether it was the 'smile, it may never happen' shit or the 'dear' bollocks. I'm too old to be Karen, but I wouldn't put up with that either.

I'm a woman, I have as much right to breathe air and take up space in the world as anyone, be they younger than me, maler than me, richer than me - it doesn't matter, they don't have special privilege.

If you have been acting reasonably and within the law, and someone patronises you, the choices are laugh at them, or get so angry that you scare them.

Practice saying 'Karen'? is that all you've got?'

Yes this is what I've thought: I need to change my approach.

But I never used to think this.

JK Rowling gets the Hag label though!

Hard stares are good too.

To be clear no one has called me a Karen.

I should have said fear of being viewed this way, and it having a negatively impact on negotiations or discussions.

Claim it back. Celebrate the Karens. One of my closest friends is called Karen and she’s a fierce warrior. If someone tried to call her one she’d gladly say, ‘Yes I fucking am. What of it?’ My Karen stands up for her rights and doesn’t put up with any shit. It shouldn’t be an insult. It should be a badge of honour.

Being scared of some plonker using a particularly plonky word is no reason to desist from doing the right thing, whatever the right thing is.

And I agree about there being some excellent real world Karens.

The meme is doing its job, keeping a woman hesitant.
I think it’s a manufactured fear though. I think that for several reasons-
Unless someone says it- which they won’t if they are offering a service- then it’s all in our imagination. We think they might be thinking that and we self censor.
Being thought to be a ‘Karen’ is not a thing to fear. It’s merely a thought in someone’s head.

My mother takes ‘looking one’s best’ very seriously. She’s offended by people who are [insert unfavourable feature]. She feels we are obliged to look good. That it’s a moral duty.
She cannot compute that no one is obliged to look good. They can as equally choose to wear comfortable clothes, or cheap clothes, or clashing colours.

The whole ‘someone thinks I’m a middle aged, overweight angry woman’ worry is entirely in our own heads.

I have every right to be angry, overweight, and the far side of 50.

This is a good thread- https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5534239-dreadful-middle-aged-women-take-a-bow?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Middle-aged women speaking up, holding boundaries or legitimately complaining have always been considered:

1 unreasonable/‘difficult’
2 angry (whether they are expressing anger or not)
and 3 objects of ridicule.

All that’s happened is it’s been given a (stupid, misogynistic) name and conflated with a load of comedically unreasonable behaviour to produce memes that endorse the wholesale dismissal of any middle-aged woman who expresses dissatisfaction or disagreement with anything, ever.

The fact it now has a name doesn’t mean the exact same level of dismissal and irritation wasn’t happening before. It was.

But it makes it even easier for other people to shut you down when you’re pre-empting it and checking yourself before you even open your mouth - which is quite literally societal patriarchy in full force.

If you allow the naming of it give it so much more power, OP, and change your behaviour accordingly, you’re just letting the whole fucking world to tell you to sit down and shut up and shrink to fit the tiny, inconsequential space that’s been allocated to you. Which is what the entirety of male-dominated societies have wanted older women to do forever.

And, uncomfortable as it is, we have to actively resist being diminished in every interaction. Say what you want to say, and take up the space you deserve and have earned, stupid fucking memes or not.

(Coming from someone who’s had to give this a bit of thought because of my own name …)

Was it Theresa May who embraced being a ‘bloody difficult woman’?

I do appreciate all the encouragement to not give a fuck.

But I also think its a fact that how women are perceived does negatively impact us and not caring doesn't negate the impact.

Its shit that women like me even occasionally think like this. But reality is, we will be judged and it can mean we are dismissed, not treated as favourably or shut out of things.

And actually how we dress does do the same. No you are not obliged to try to look good, but if you don't it may negatively impact you.

Discrimination against older less attractive women is a real thing and not caring about it doesn't make you immune from it.

I'm surprised so many feminists think it's just a simple non event thing that if you stop caring it wont matter or harm you.

That went well for her 😄

She seemed quite mild. I'm much worse than her 😂

A Karen is someone who uses her privilege as a weapon. Not just a woman who argues.

Technically yes - in reality it's every woman (esp those over a certain age) who dares stand her ground, particularly against Dicks (men).

I am actually called Karen and almost 50. And it honestly really upsets me. I never challenge anything any more especially by email. And when I challenge it with any one they twll
me
to lighten and get a sense of humour.

You are def overthinking. A true Karen is entitled, believes only her opinion counts and that her needs come before others. Usually in a determined loud voice.Don't do this and you're fine.

I'm sorry to hear this.
It is really negatively impacting some women and how we are perceived.

Its also such as shame because Karem is a beautiful name 💐

you control what you see on social media , block , report or press “not interested” button when it next pops up

its ageist , sexist and needs to stop - YOU be that change

i shamed my hairdresser when he said he didn't want me to have a karen hair cut