Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

Blimey you are managing to do the meme, whilst also suggesting it's just a me problem.

Impressive.

I am really sorry that you aren’t getting the support you were looking for. I’m also sorry that one of my prior posts came across as unsupportive - it was genuinely not intended that way, but I see that it was.

I don’t personally (ymmv) think “just ignore it” is “cool girl” behaviour, so much as “we have no more fucks to give, because we have given them all already, therefore we have stopped caring about what other people think.”

But I can see that when it is you being treated this way, other people saying they have been treated that way forever and the only thing that they have found that works is just to essentially roll with it, because fighting it entails fighting the world - would feel really insensitive.

I think its very difficult for those things not to happen in a world where the interests of men remain paramount. Because achieving a lot of the things on the list rely on being a woman men want to give them to. Even when the person with the power to do so is a woman, the criteria for bestowing them tends to fall in line with male preference.
In some contexts women can be a person men want to to offer opportunity and visibility to, because she has skills or attributes that make her useful or because they want to impress her.
Karen unfortunately, does not.
She is typically a person where engagement will be temporary so not worth investing in. She is not being useful (she is creating work with her requests/complaints) she may not be someone men want to impress or please because they don't want to sleep with her, and impressing a woman with life experience would be hard work anyway.
Some women navigate this by taking on behaviour that promises reward for pleasing them. They don't ask assertively, they throw themselves on the mercy, feign a helplessness and gratitude that make them desirable to help. Others use charm. These things work where assertiveness and plain speaking don't.
Which isn't a recommendation, but an observation.

Thank you 💐

Unduly prickly riposte, I feel. I shall not attempt to divine the cause.

That's a really helpful insightful observation thank you.

An unduly mild riposte I feel.

And I'll help you with the cause: it was a twattish post.

Small acts of resistance and reading things like invisible women and getting others to do similar to find the smaller ways to change the world at a practical level are much more helpful and practical to women on a daily basis but often go unnoticed.

This has to go hand in hand with giving no fucks too though, because otherwise you are forever sidelined.

Cool girl misogyny? Wow. I'm posting in the spirit of discussion but also, actually, trying to help a bit if I can. I acknowledged in my post that there is a real world problem did I not?
You are being unnecessarily brittle and hostile to be honest. Did you post on here only to seek validation? If so you don't know Mumsnet very well it seems

Miscygonic?

I posted on the feminism board.
So yes I was hoping for some validation, alongside analysis and support.

It's not AIBU.

But those are the types of responses I got so yes I feel justification in my 'brittleness'.

'Brittle'? Isn't that the kind of language used to shut up dissenting women?

Someone will be along to call me shrill any minute now.

And right back at you: if you can't take your post being critiqued, don't come on mumsnet, apparently.

And yes I do find the be like me just don't care responses are weirdly Cool Girl.

The thing is, it’s a hugely powerful step of resistance.
I dunno, maybe being appeasing, sending a tame bloke to do the job, works better. Does it? It does perpetuate the meme.

I don’t think anyone is talking about accepting discrimination, they are responding to the OP’s point about the urge to try to stay likeable.

We’re allowed to be sharp. It’s a safe place to practise being bolshy. It’s really hard to let go of societal expectation to be nice. It was a joy of landing here, to see women disagreeing quite forcefully without apologising for it.

I haven't said anything about an urge to be likeable.

I've talked about how being negatively perceived impacts interactions and outcomes.

Other people responded as if the issue is likability.

I've repeated made the point it's about real world impact of negative perception.

Karen: sexually unavailable women who doesn't give a Sh8t and has her own opinion (not merely her husband's)
Yes, stereotypes often have a root, but I dont' see this as a negative.
Come on, you're Gen X, don't give a sh8t :D

There's a reason why witches were simultaneously vilified, feared and awed - they have a power.

Well I obviously don't give a shit about being liked on this thread.

So that's a start eh?

It wasn't until I came on here that I had heard the name Karen used in a negative way. When a woman is assertive often people don't like it- tough. When my friends and I got to 50, we decided we were going to call people out. CBA dealing with their crap

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen being seen as an obstreperous middle-aged woman.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming.

It would have been neglectful not to remark that a sudden loss of self-assurance is a common perimenopausal experience. Since you're so offended by the idea, it's probably pointless to assure you it rarely lasts long and your potentially fearless post-menopausal self will be much strengthened by battling this now.

Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

I was shocked that you credited an ageist, sexist meme, which insults millions of women called Karen, with the power to undermine your confidence. I didn't think you could be quite serious, so I made a little joke of it.

If you genuinely feel the 'Karen phenomenon' has crushed your confidence, the problem must be worse than you've realised. PPs have invested effort in some lovely replies to you, many of which you've brushed dismissively away. I do hope your thread will at least succeed in prompting a more useful analysis of where you're at in your life and what this meme symbolises for you.

The Karen trope is very sexist and ageist, but as I get older I find myself leaning into it. I've had enough with shit service, I'm in my 50s and don't give a damn what people think of me, I'm way over being nice to fit assumptions that older women should be grateful that We're still let out of the house with our dumpy bodies and comfortable shoes.

A few hundred years ago we'd have been shunned as scolds - or hanged as witches- so I'm going to continue to call out shit attitudes and crappy service - if not us than who will??

The meme is real and powerful and centuries old, just with a new presention. And its affecting many women as other's have attested to.

Your suggestion it's just my hormones is vile misogyny.

I'm actually a bit confused now. Is what is bothering you that you feel less assertive, (posters answers = be assertive anyway) or just want to talk about the Karen issue in general and how it affects all of us women (answer=we know)? I feel the goalposts are moving.

Menopause is misogyny. That's a new one!

Women have been told to back off and shut up since the beginning of time. Being a “Karen” (which I have never heard in the Uk) is just the latest.

Why would you take it seriously? Would you worry about someone calling you a bitch/witch/old cow/slag/ etc etc etc? No, because the person would be completely out of order. The same goes for “Karen” don’t let fear of other people being rude put you off doing your job.

Writing off sexism as 'it's just your hormones.'

Yes. Clear cut old bloke misogyny.

Women reports sexism effecting her.
Old bloke: "Don't be silly love. It's nothing! Are you on your period?'

Same thing.

I think the term has been coopted from something fair into something very misogynistic and is massively overused to silence women.

However the use of the term wouldn't put me off standing up for myself at all because I know I'm generally fair and polite in how I put something across and i know I'm accountable and will go back to someone if i think later that i handled a situation badly. If I'm being fair and someone wants to be defensive, reactive and lash out in that way and call me a Karen then that's their issue - not mine so I will not be taking that on myself.

I know women don't 'owe' anyone kindness etc and that there's a big double standard between men and women, in terms of what is seen as acceptable when they are when giving criticism, but I do generally try to be tactful and sensitive when giving criticism - not because I'm a woman, but because we're all learning and I think it's a respect thing and it's how id expect to be spoken to if roles were reversed. I also think it's more likely to bring people along with you which is more influential and there's a quiet power in that. I do think there's more space now for men and women to progress in leadership roles where they're showing more compassion and leading gently, I certainly see it in my own workplace and we're all better for it because the overall culture is better and staff performance is better.

I don't have a massive issue with the term itself provided it's only being used where a woman is being harmful in her approach as I do think that should be called out (just as we might call a man a dickhead or an arsehole) but it should never be used simply to shut women down.

What I would say is that there's always room for self reflection, and if your gut is telling you that maybe sometimes you do go a bit hard at people and maybe that can hurt feelings there's also no harm in modifying your approach as long as you're doing it because it feels like the right thing to do FOR YOU rather than from a place of fear.