Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

I do think that time of life can bring about extremes in a person that wasn't seen before (possibly shocking for a bystander), and so when viewed as a collective, turns into a stereotype. Similar to how "men are violent" - obv not all men are, but as a collective they are. Stereotypes have roots.

Similarly, the period, or menopause thing. You'll have to be in denial to say these things don't affect women's moods. And often it's the extremes that are noticed, even if most do not experience/go through them.

Well there is being sharp and being rude. But I suppose that comes down to perception.

Agreed and I think context is everything.

If you're sharp because you need to defend yourself and it's appropriate for the situation absolutely have at it, but if you're being sharp because you're not having the best day and you just want to take it out on the next person in your path then I think that's unfair for anyone to do irregardless of sex.

I don't know why I'm still trying here. Maybe it's because I recognise the gist of what you're saying, even though we're framing the experience in very different ways, and keep wanting to offer some help. Don't worry, I've hidden the thread so won't be back. You are getting such lovely replies from others. I cling to a hope that you'll discover an ability to hear what they're saying.

Nobody's writing off sexism as 'it's just your hormones', ffs.

I was making the otherwise widely-known point that hormonal changes can alter our emotional responses. To sexism, inter alia.

Probably because after years of being bombarded with negative stereotypes of older women , now you are one of them you feel like you have to justify your existence/taking up space. By being kind, nice and polite like everyone’s favourite grandma. By being liked.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Whenever I hear this expression I always think 'flies prefer bullshit'. But certainly, as every parent needs to learn, you pick your battles.

It is hard to overcome female conditioning. Misogyny is rarely taken seriously as the prejudice it is and your attitude to it may be proportional to your social standing/background because not all women experience it equally.

Where you can, you make choices who you interact with, we all do it. If their livelihood depends on your business they'll be bright enough to adapt or lose your business. There are an increasing number of female traders and women with financial power.

Sometimes you have to put up with it, but you take notice of people who easily use rhetoric to push your psychological buttons and decide how to go forward with them - we judge people as much as we are judged ourselves.

I'm surprised some haven't come across Karen being used in the UK. I often see it on social media/ comments page on online news articles (often just a quick put-down of "OK Karen") and teens use it too - I put a stop to that very quickly when mine did, and explained exactly why it's so offensive!

That's why we're here. That's why Sal Grovers case matters. That's why we're uneasy about women being isolated from the wider world of female support by their menfolk.

Yeah I've definitely heard it a lot in the UK and had a good chat with my neice when she used it about the origins and how its used now and why that's not really okay. Its so casual and most of the time it's just very thoughtless when used by teens especially which is why education and open conversation is so important.

It’s used a lot here and I challenge it wherever I see it.
In the uk it’s moved away from its US roots around race privilege, and is purely used to shut women up. Always.

I have never seen a woman ‘being a Karen’. I have only ever seen women being judged for making themselves heard. It’s a toxic meme, as has been said it’s the latest presentation of age old prejudice against women who stand up.

And we have to carry on regardless. And controversially, imo we need to let go of some of the anger. It’s righteous, yes, but it’s also exhausting.
We need to save our energy to navigate avoiding the obstacles the fuckers throw up.

Being angry doesn’t change the situation. Being nice doesn’t change it.
Carrying on regardless does. Women who DGAF and stand proud getting on with it are refuting it- but not without being called names.

Well yes.
Whether that's the anonymity or the assumption of majority female company...

I see and hear it in real life, I meant to say earlier, but rarely in videos as it’s not what my algorithm offers. I get a combination of JKR and TRAs stuff, and kittens to help me recover 🤣

A few hundred years...or a few thousand miles.

The whole Karen thing is American culture and a response to a certain type of behaviour there of complaining in shops and restaurants. It also has a racial aspect.

As a rule we just don’t complain or behave in that way in shops and restaurants, both men and women are generally averse to making a scene although I accept that isn’t always true. So I actually think the Karen thing was naming some pretty unpleasant behaviour that service workers had to put up with sometimes. But the whole thing widened to general misogyny, as others have said it’s now as sexist as any other horrible term.

There always needs to be space on the algorithm for cute animals and cottage core to balance things🤣🤣

But this is a great point actually that how teenagers especially are experiencing social media because of algorithms is so different.

I work in peace building so sometimes my searches or things I engage with are quite contrary to my actual views and my algorithm often gets utterly fucked and I need to work hard to balance it but it's actually scary how quickly it descends into what od describe as actually quite extremist content. It really does just take you to scratch the surface which is terrifying when you think about what young, developing minds are getting access to.

Genuine question and not meant to be in any way disrespectful- but surely there's an element of misogyny in pretending some women aren't affected by hormonal changes because to be we should be making allowances for that in supportive ways that don't shut women down but still hold space for that experience? Surely that's crucial in order to cultivate homes and workspaces that are more inclusive for women in all stages of life?

I'm not at menopause stage yet so all I have to compare it to is how I feel around my time of the month and during/ after pregnancy but for me those were big changes and it absolutely did/does affect my emotions and processing. And I do find some relief in understanding that because it helps me rationalise why I suddenly feel like I'm good at nothing or like everyone suddenly hates me and once I know that's not 'me' it's just a bodily process I feel more in control again if that makes any sense? And for me that's reasonably mild compared to what some women with the likes of pmdd (I know the name recently changed but can't remember to what) go through. A lot of women I know who are going through menopause have spoken to me about the impact on their confidence because its a knock on effect of increased anxiety or brain fog affecting how they feel about their performance in the work place.

I kind of think that expecting us as women to almost deny our biology is as bad as purely blaming everything on our biology. It's a big part of the female experience and I understand completely that it may not be your individual experience op, but obviously it's an anonymous forum so noone on here is going to know that about you. Having these conversations in my previous work place resulted in a shift from a couple of female staff almost leaving the workforce to instead bringing in a menopause policy in order to support them and other women if they were struggling.

I actually agree with this to a point.

I went completely off a cliff with my hormones in a way that I don't think is adequately talked about. Some of this brush off comes from women who are relatively fine during the same period of their life. For others it's like the entire ground underneath them collapses.

I see more of a comparison with the stigma of mental health issues tbh, rather than associating it with misogyny as such - because of the women who won't acknowledge it's a significant issue for some.

I'd be happy to consider that menopause is a contributory factor in undermining self confidence and increasing anxiety which can interact with our/my response to sexism of the Karen meme.

But that wasn't how it was raised. This is what was said:

Something's undermining you, Karen (😉), and I doubt it's an ageist meme.

And this:

I was shocked that you credited an ageist, sexist meme, which insults millions of women called Karen, with the power to undermine your confidence.

It's the ridiculing of the sexist memes ability to impact me and replacing the explanation with hormones that I found unpleasant and sexist.

Its completely shitty when you receive poorer responses or service as a result of this happening.

So, in the instance of the conveyancing, you felt discouraged to point out a factual error because you knew that you'd be more easily dismissed and therefore the problem wouldn't be solved? Is that right?

Exactly.

And yes it's shitty.

Also when I did raise issues I felt his response was much more dismissive and irritated and the working relationship more potentially undermined than if another man had raised the issues.

It's not about him liking me it's about his perception and response of me limiting the outcome I want.

Which isn't because of the menopause.

I wonder what approach other posters would have taken to the issue. Ignored the issue and pointed it out anyway? Challenged the dismissive response? Not pointed the error out in the first place?

Its really interesting because the issue persists even if you pretend it doesn't but the question is how to get to the bit where your point is accepted and mistakes rectified. Without doing the middle bit (the part where you are dismissed but the mistake still needs fixing).

Its exhausting. I hear you.

It's very telling how people, especially men react when a women advocates for herself and is assertive in general. I think the bigger question to ask is why is this a problem for some?
You'll be judged regardless so don't be afraid to assert yourself and don't be afraid to called a Karen. It's just a misogynistic slur anyway.
I am friendly and kind but that doesn't make me weak and it's not a choice of being nice or being a Karen.
You sound like an intelligent, fun, hardworking, wonderful woman so please don't let that worry stop you.

Yes the options seem to be:

1)Continue being assertive and not care when it leads to worse outcomes for you.

2)Adjust your approach to be more 'acceptable' to try to get the outcome you want.

Option 2 is fine as a normal negotiation strategy but infuriating when you are aware you have to adjust your demeanor because you are an older women.

I see your point and yes it makes sense to compare it to stigma around mental health - expecially when we're talking women to women, but then surely it can also become inherently misogynistic when it moves into a work place context or similar because its a specifically female experience, so if that's affecting womens ability to be safety and securely in the workplace then is there not a level of discrimination on the grounds of sex there? Because what you're almost expecting is every woman to perform in the way a man would perform even though we know some women will not be able to do that in the same way as others?

Op thanks for your explanation, I can see the issue was more the delivery of what was said and it could have been framed in a more supportive/curious way that gave you space to respond with your own experience.