Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

The reality is that there is judgement out there, the way you react to this is what makes the difference.

They are winning if you are finding you are modifying your behaviour because of this. Continue being bold, you can choose whether this negative judgement is worthy of your energy. The judgement is out there to diminish you, it really, really shoudn't.

Why are you all attacking the op? This is a really embarrassing thread to read. Op is making a totally understandable point and I don't understand the reactions on here

Yeh I hoped for some support.

If someone doesn't like us, it's ok to be disliked.

Why do you think this is about being liked?

Misogyny isn't just about women feeling upset men are mean. It has real world negative outcomes for women.

Just accepting someone dislikes you doesn't mean their negative views don't translate into negative outcomes for you.

It's quite frankly ridiculous to suggest that negative views of older women are only a problem because we care if they like us.

We can not care avout being disliked and still:

Be ignored
Overlooked
Miss out on opportunities
Be less persuasive
Less likely to achieve outcomes
Denied access
Shut down
Frozen out
Colluded against

And just not caring they don't like me doesn't stop any of that.

What's your alternative solution?

Come on.

I'm all ears.

Why are you attacking other posters for stating what they feel is the only viable response, whilst failing to do anything more than berate them?!

I don't mean to be unsupportive, but this has never occurred to me. I'm also a woman in her 50's and the opinion of stupid men has never bothered me less.
I think this is perhaps more of an issue with your personal self esteem and frankly unpleasant men being unpleasant towards you. These kind of responses are designed to belittle you and make you feel more hesitant at offering your opinion. Maybe instead of saying, don't let it bother you - instead perhaps try and reframe it and see the behaviour for what it is? Misogyny in action. I think middle aged women pose a particularly issue for some kinds of men. We're not so decorative any more and peskily know stuff.

Karen is a horrible term and I can totally relate to what you're saying, OP. I have felt exactly the same way and it has put me off complaining. It's such a well-lnown meme now that people instantly think of it when a middle-aged woman is assertive, without even needing to say the word.

Sometimes people just want to be met with empathy. To feel some commonality.

I had an absolute ex, telling me "just don't care about what he says" was never going to work. It's just trite. The process is more complex than that and sometimes it begins with other people saying "I understand why it makes you feel that way"

I am mid 50's and being called a Karen is not even on my worry radar.

Over the years I think I have got to a good point where I get what I want and need by;

Not caring about some things and only fighting certain battles
Commanding respect upfront - head held high, an assertive voice and be confident
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I would very politely, but directly point out anything amiss with my contractor, or anything else I am dealing with. If I get rudeness back, or nowhere, only then would I start to escalate it.

If anyone called me a Karen I'd just laugh and say "whoa horsie, you don't like what I am saying so you are pulling the Karen card. How unprofessional! Do you want to put that in an email to me? " or "Great, I know lots of women called Karen and they are amazing. Thanks for the compliment".

I think the issue here is more why you care what anyone things of you at 54. I thought by then the loss of the caring hormone fixed all that?

However, I do just want to say that I work in a job with the general public, and my God, some of them moan and whinge about the most inconsiquential stuff. One major gripe is that they had to wait more than 5 seconds. My point here is, learn to be patient. The world has changed and people are overworked and underpaid. It has made me a lot more patient with people and I've learnt that it is not worth upsetting myself over. I hardly ever complain now and people who complain about stupid small things clearly have too much time on their hands.

I don’t think she was attacking anyone

Here's a solution:

Women share experiences.
They build understanding that their experience is part of a system and it's not just their personal failing.
They feel understood by other women.
They recognise it has real world impact on women and it's not just us thinking about it that's the problem.
They feel encouraged by other women's stories.
Other women support them to reframe the experience.
They suggest ways to address both the internal struggle and the real world consequences of the real experience.
Through this female solidarity we all go out into the world a little more emboldened and prepared.
And ready to support other women when we see it happening to them.

But I presume this approach is just 'simpering head patting' to you?

No but you aren't going to change their mind or anything that they think, by shutting up and letting them get to you either are you?

They are looking for weakness to reinforce their poor attitude of women as being less capable and they feel threatened by competent women as it shows up their inadequacies. Many know their success is due to their testicles and bullying rather than their ability. If they have no ability they don't have anything else to fall back on but insults.

Ad homenium attacks are the attack of last resort. Take it as a compliment as you report to HR for sexism. Take as a compliment that they feel they have fuck all else to report with.

You may be getting older and less attractive. They've always been stupid and are massively insecure.

I think understanding just how insecure these type of men are is fascinating. They behave like stereotypical 'bitchy teenage girls', so in terms of throwing back an insult that's going to sting there's always these options.

Unfortunately, in social situations where you cant take it over their heads, there really isn't anything else you can do but double down.

We do this already. Part of this recognises that, it also doesn't work in lots of situations - precisely because you are the only woman in the room or all your bosses are men, not women.

Ok, that’s a long list of things that happen to women as they age. Pretty much globally, and pretty much since the dawn of time.

It’s not clear what you think we can tell you that you don’t already know, though.

Women have been trying to fix this forever. We clearly don’t have the solutions or it would be fixed. Some women - FWS, for instance - have dedicated their lives to trying to fix it, and have still not fixed it.

The rest of us accept it - accept in the sense of acknowledge that it exists, not agree with it - and just try to make things work the best we can anyway.

It is shitty. It is beyond our individual control. We do what we can to make it better, and in the meantime we try not to turn ourselves inside out.

People who call others that are usually a bit dim. Ignore and smile.

You expressed it much more clearly than I did!

Yes, exactly this

It’s not clear what you think we can tell you that you don’t already know, though.

Ok. Thanks.

I don’t think it’s attacking, it’s pushing back.
And some of us are pushing back because considering it, making ourselves smaller because of it and using the slur ourselves, gives it power.

The only power we have in this situation is to inhabit ourselves more fully. Rejecting the power of the insult IS the only way to resist.

I am a bit fascinated by this actually because I can’t see it happening in other contexts.

We recognise and challenge harmful stereotypes as a rule. That doesn’t remove them in entirety but awareness is a start.

I guess I am trying to imagine a similar conversation on Black Mumsnetters where they cheerfully agree racism doesn’t bother them or coldly and sardonically state that there’s no solutions and anyone objecting hasn’t presented one so STFU. I can’t see that happening.

@PrizedPickledPopcorn I kind of think the opposite to be honest.

If someone uses an offensive term - which obviously I’m not going to type but we can imagine the sort - ideally they’d be met by shock / dismay by those around them. I am sure a few people use terms in private they wouldn’t use in public because they have become taboo and associated with a certain type of person who uses them.

Karen is on that level to me. Maybe some disagree but I can’t see it as just ‘oh, doesn’t bother me!’

Yes Ilit has been an interesting response.

A similar comparison would be people who are disabled. They often have to complain and there is a lot of discourse in disability rights about how they are then perceived and this further negatively impacts them.

I don't imagine on the disability board someone posting about struggling with this would be told:

Just don't care!
What else do you want?
A head pat?
What's your solution then?

It's been an interesting response from women who claim to support other woman.

Oh I agree! I wouldn’t let it pass unchallenged!

But OP is talking about the fear they may be thinking it. Not what to do when it’s said aloud.

It’s a very childish insult, imo. It’s a patriarchal equivalent of a small child sticking their fingers in their ears because mummy is holding them to account for something.

I don't think me saying I choose not to take it on doesn't mean there isn't a problem out there as regards negative attitudes and discrimination towards older women. There is a problem. I just choose not to internalise the impact of it.
That is not the same as saying 'its all in your head'.

If you're feeling like this as an assertive woman of 54, I wouldn't rule out hormonal changes. Something's undermining you, Karen (😉), and I doubt it's an ageist meme.

You can choose not to internalise it but that doesn't stop the negative real world discrimination.

And it's hard to not care about being discriminated against.

Why the fuck should I not care about being discriminated against?

I do care.
It does bother me.

Some of this sounds like 'Cool Girl' misogyny against other women.

If only I was cooler, cared less, bolder, like you, then I wouldn't have these problems.

It’s like we’re reading two different threads.

Nowhere has anyone said it’s ok.
Nowhere has anyone said it isn’t a real problem that we all negotiate every day.

As @Jshkag said, we must not internalise it! We fight back, we rise up, as women on FWR are working at all the time.