How do you handle gender identity disagreements within a long-standing social group?

[GuinevereOfTheRoyalCourt]

I am very firmly of the opinion that no child can be 'transgender', and that instead we should just embrace the fact that some are gender non-conforming and allow them to express themselves however they choose. I view the use of puberty blockers, x-sex hormones and 'gender-affirming' surgery on children as immoral.

I have participated in a club (my hobby) for many years which mostly includes middle-aged women of a similar age with teenage children. I have been aware for some time (at least 4 years) that one of the women probably had a trans child because of snippets of conversations that I've overheard and generic WhatsApp posts about trans rights.

Anyway, during a recent social gathering - one of the other ladies enquired about the child and it was clear that they have been transitioned for some time but are still only mid-teens. The mother of this child (who I've always got on with well in a superficial small-talk way) is clearly of a very similar mindset to Susie Green. I was quite horrified about what she was saying, but I sat in complete silence. All the other ladies were being really sympathetic and supportive.

This has really played on my mind. I hate confrontations and I really don't want to have any fallings out as this club is really important to me. However, I feel terrible that no other opinion was being expressed and that my silence effectively makes me complicit in the harm of a child.

How do other people deal with this sort of situation? I can't help feeling that most people don't even give much thought to this issue (hence the supportive voices from everyone else) and that we'll only stop this happening if they get to hear the 'other side'. But how can that happen if people like me feel too afraid to speak up?

I think you are right be remain careful in a group that is valuable to you. You are unlikely to change any minds in that situation. I was thinking maybe to burn off steam you could channel those feelings into a letter to a local MP or some NGO or something to let them know they are supporting this nonsense... what's personal is political and all that 🌻

Why are you replying on this board if you are just insulting everyone?

I think challenging the parent in this situation would be counterproductive. They will likely be very defensive and angry which will paint you as an aggressor and them as a victim.

if you want to stay in the group then I would just keep your thoughts to yourself.

I agree with this. People seem to have ridiculously firm views on all types of expertise these days that in the past would have been the province of the doctor treating them or the lawyer advising them. People knew what they didn't know, and perhaps there was too much deference, but they didn't constantly opine on how best to do things, even when we couldn't possibly really know, as no fantastic scientific evidence exists around, say, gendered care or trans. We don't know, we are best guessing, some people best guessed one way, some best guessed another, and slowly but surely some evidence is being built (though that has its problems, ethically, to expose people to treatments that may harm them).

If I were a parent in this situation, I'd be joining talk groups of parents that had been through it, and charities that are set up to support parents, preferably from a range of viewpoints.

I wouldn't want every single person I knew to pile in and tell me their views on trans.

It's like when someone gets cancer, everyone weighs in with their fantastic suggestions (have you thought of running marathons/visualisation/travelling to far distant land to get surgery irrelevant for you/reading about treatments you can't have for various reasons?)

If people ask for advice from you give it. If it's just opinions you feel the need to express, just express them somewhere where it won't cause emotional upset in the hearer, they have enough to worry about. The circle approach is excellent- the inner circle people express outward, and the outer people go outer still. Don't be an outer person trying to express something to an inner circle person who is directly affected.

Evolution can work both ways. Humanity could evolve to lose higher consciousness. AI could potentially speed that up.

Or you could argue that the higher intelligence and ability to deal with nuance in a social context and also recognising reality (important from a physical health and longevity point of view) which originally in Human Evolution lead to people living longer is now maladaptive due to a changed environment.

Bit off topic and philosophical but I keep wondering about this these days.

Unfortunately it's mostly those in a position of power that seem really unable to cope with alternative views (honourable mentions to the exceptions) - that in itself is a fascinating phenomenon.

The cancer analogy is a good one, in that if someone tells you they've decided to treat their cancer though a diet of fruit and vegetable juices and decline conventional medicine, what do you say? If they ask your opinion you give it, if they tell you 1:1 maybe you do too, if they are just talking about it in a big group and you're really only aquaintances probably not - odds are plenty of people closer to them have already argued with them... If they told you about a sibling or other adult relative taking this route you might start by asking how they felt about it and whether they'd researched peer reviewed studies, but if they were evangelical and convinced then an aquaintance wouldn't change their mind.

If they're trying to treat their minor age child's cancer that way then currently their medical team would probably use the courts to overrule them, and that is of course what's different.

Well said.

I think some subjects are just too emotive to be discussed in a social situation. When it comes down to it, the parent will have to face any negative consequences (should there be any) of their child’s transition, so it’s best not to get involved.

The cancer analogy is an interesting one because if an acquaintance did start talking about treating their cancer with fruit juice, the only really meaningful advice you could give them would be to please follow the advice of their medical team.

Whereas on this issue for some reason there are people who have read a couple of social media posts and a few reactionary headlines and now think their opinion is worth more than that of the medical experts supporting this child and their parents.

i understand this w

What? Obviously the child will be the one facing the full force of the negative consequences - quite likely for the rest of their life - however sad or regretful their parent may be for having sanctioned it.

We are all collectively responsible for not speaking up. It's not that OP individually would make a difference to that individual who may be as captured as they come. Or may not be if you actually have a conversation and find out.

How are these people going to find out that the majority of the country are not okay with their teenaged son sharing changing rooms with our teenaged girls - if everyone who disagrees with them is too cowed to ever mention it? That affects my child too come to that. Am I allowed to speak on that one then?

I don't know what sort of conversations OP is not joining in but e.g. if parent is grumbling about their male offspring not being allowed in the girls changing room I would try to get in a "at our school they have some individual spaces available, that seems to work well - have they offered A something like that?" That's clunky, probably something shorter, but that sort of idea. Not entering a stand up row, but not nodding along either.

Or re medication all you have to do is draw out that current medical advice in the UK has changed. Oh I heard there is a new study, is your DC part of that?

"How are these people going to find out that the majority of the country are not okay with their teenaged son sharing changing rooms with our teenaged girls - if everyone who disagrees with them is too cowed to ever mention it?"

This.

I also think that there is probably a proportion of people who haven't been directly impacted and haven't given the consequences much thought - so they will readily nod along because they've never properly heard a different viewpoint.

I do worry that the views of parents who are pro-transitioning become even more entrenched because they believe that all 'nice' people agree with them. They can then reassure themselves that the opposing views of all those nasty mean people on the internet and who write DailyMail articles can be ignored, as none of the 'real people' that they like and interact with think like that.

So yeah, if I'm the only one who has a different opinion, this isn't likely to make much difference. However, if I'm part of a much larger group of people who are too scared to upset anyone, surely that's a problem?

Th idea that you seriously believe that these parents know nothing of the social resistance they are up against is astounding.

You act as if they haplessly enabled their children to suffer a life time of social rejection & medication as if there wasn't a necessary trade off involved. You seriously believe that there isn't every incentive not to do this for parents? They do so oh so casually & ignorantly?

As supportive as I am of these parents I would never wish the heart breaking decisions they have to make on anybody.

The unqualified arrogance here is breathtaking.

You can just read posts on this board if you want to see the narrative. We get loads of them saying in the real world the vast majority of women are absolutely fine with sharing spaces with TW, that we're a tiny minority of dinosaurs objecting. They really don't know.

Or worse she may just happen to express her opinion in front of someone like me & get an 'opinion' back that just so happens to also be the dressing down of her life.

Is that because you can’t tolerate different opinions? You have to “give someone the dressing down of her life” for not agreeing with your assessment of the situation?

You haven’t said whether the child in question is male or female I don’t think? In my opinion, females (and mothers of females) have more to ‘lose’ on transitioning because any drugs are likely to have irreversible effects more quickly.
If it is a teen male who is transitioning, then whatever the reality, his mother is likely to see him as the ‘gentle, feminine, wouldn’t hurt a fly and would fully pass as a woman’ type.

So, whilst I agree with others that there is no point forcing your opinion on anyone in the group, depending on the exact situation I would offer neutral but ‘widening the debate’ type remarks.

There are other areas where people have opinions that may be divisive but needn’t break up a friendship group. Vegans/meat eaters, for example. Non-flyers for climate change reasons vs people who love to travel.

So, if it is a female child you could say ‘gosh that must be really difficult.’ And then later on say something like ‘ I do think it is really important that sex and gender are distinguished though, particularly by departments like the NHS. I think it is awful that the NHS change the sex market and then females might miss cervical screening reminders’. Or something like that.

If it is a male, you can say ‘I am sure it must be really difficult for your child. But actually I am very relieved that single sex exemptions exist, because when I needed to arrange carers for my grandmother, she needed single sex care because [] and a transwoman, however nice, would have distressed her/left her vulnerable etc etc.

Well, if you want to try it at all, the most effective way to to express scepticism is not by telling people facts. It's by asking questions "how do you suppose DC will cope with..." or "what do you think of..." or "do you think everyone will go along with that?" and by nodding along neutrally with the answers "I see". You want them to do the thinking.

Be careful though - if they say something really crazy then "do you think so?" can be devastating and they may never speak to you again. What you want is for them to hear themselves say it and (maybe not til afterwards) doubt themselves.

I assume Bailey would rip a woman to pieces loudly and aggressively as a warning to anyone else in the group thinking of having wrong think opinions Bailey doesn't agree with (like no one can change sex)