How do you handle gender identity disagreements within a long-standing social group?

[GuinevereOfTheRoyalCourt]

I am very firmly of the opinion that no child can be 'transgender', and that instead we should just embrace the fact that some are gender non-conforming and allow them to express themselves however they choose. I view the use of puberty blockers, x-sex hormones and 'gender-affirming' surgery on children as immoral.

I have participated in a club (my hobby) for many years which mostly includes middle-aged women of a similar age with teenage children. I have been aware for some time (at least 4 years) that one of the women probably had a trans child because of snippets of conversations that I've overheard and generic WhatsApp posts about trans rights.

Anyway, during a recent social gathering - one of the other ladies enquired about the child and it was clear that they have been transitioned for some time but are still only mid-teens. The mother of this child (who I've always got on with well in a superficial small-talk way) is clearly of a very similar mindset to Susie Green. I was quite horrified about what she was saying, but I sat in complete silence. All the other ladies were being really sympathetic and supportive.

This has really played on my mind. I hate confrontations and I really don't want to have any fallings out as this club is really important to me. However, I feel terrible that no other opinion was being expressed and that my silence effectively makes me complicit in the harm of a child.

How do other people deal with this sort of situation? I can't help feeling that most people don't even give much thought to this issue (hence the supportive voices from everyone else) and that we'll only stop this happening if they get to hear the 'other side'. But how can that happen if people like me feel too afraid to speak up?

Hmmm….. I’m not convinced that most people are happy to be told that they are bringing their children up incorrectly to be honest, no matter who tells them. There are often threads on here complaining about that sort of thing.

The problem is that, if the OP had said that this mother chatted freely about screaming into her child's face, beating them with a rounders bat, locking them in their room with only a bucket in the corner for 24 hours, making them go two days without any food or drink for being cheeky or anything in that vein, absolutely nobody would be nodding along and, at most, accepting it as a 'different opinion' or a 'differing parenting style'.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the one main form of abuse whereby the authorities to whom you would normally report other kinds of abuse will refuse to act and will gaslight and stamp their feet that it's all normal and totally fine. If you're very lucky, they may acknowledge that 'not everybody sees it the same way and is as tolerant or non-prejudiced about trans children', but even then, they will 100% not consider it abuse - and YOUR failing, rather than anybody else's.

By way of analogy, imagine if the police and courts were ordered to arrest and harshly punish anybody who killed somebody with a knife, gun, very hard blow to the head or forcing them to drink poison; but if it was acknowledged that strangling somebody to death was not just not a bad thing, but actually even helping the person who subsequently died, and thus to be celebrated.

Unfortunately, the cross-dressing and opposite pronoun-use are the 'gateway drug' - no matter how often those objecting are screamed at as nasty, bigoted TERFs - and many will gradually end up wanting to have mutilation 'surgery' and or hormones that will be harmful for their body. If adults freely choose this for themselves, OK (although I would believe that even wanting it suggests a lack of capacity); but abuse of children is never something to just nod over and accept as perfectly fine.

A couple of decades ago I met parents with some unhealthy views about how to manage their autistic children. It wasn't reportable and they didn't ask for my opinion so I didn't share it. There's nothing to be gained going in gung-ho when you don't even have personal experience of the situation. I would just be neutral.

At one of my old friend's get-togethers another of my old friends (very right-on) starting making faces about J K Rowling. I declared with wide-eyed enthusiasm "she's my hero!" The subject was instantly dropped and her name has not been mentioned again. 😂

There's a huge difference between people's generic opinions on a topic, and living life with a child with that problem. People often opine on the causes or solutions to many teen issues, but aren't coming from the position of having to safeguard their own beloved child at the same time, and even if they were, wouldn't be equipped to comment on that particular child. I have children with different issues, psychiatric and otherwise, and I'm glad I didn't listen to them and wished they'd just kept their opinions to themselves. There's a huge deal of difference in having a one to one conversation where she asked for your opinion or advice, and you just launching in unasked with your 'view' on transpeople. If you are a friend, be a listening ear, and only if you are close, gently prod her own thinking if appropriate- she will be aware of gender critical views these days and doesn't agree with you on how to handle this particular issue.

I would also say I know several families who have had trans issues surface in teenagehood, and all have handled it pretty well and, despite doing some of the things people deem 'wrong' (such as agreeing to change pronouns or names), they have adults who seem to have mostly sorted through this stage and found a way to live that is happy and healthy. None has surgically transitioned. I no longer see this as an inevitable pathway but rather a stepping stone to firming up identity later in life, and often similar to people changing hair, looks, clothes, names, and so on, which happens outside trans contexts as well. Sexuality also seems to sort similarly in the teen to early adult period these days, much earlier than when people had to hide being gay and then ended up coming out much later.

All sounds a bit sixth form common room chat to me from the OP

Again, trans isn't special. Just have a normal conversation. If you'd join in any other conversation they initiate about their families then there's no need to sit in dogged silence on this one. If this parent is really Susie-Green-esque they're going to say some things that seem very extreme to most people in the room. If they're actually more middle of the road then you probably have way more in common than you both think, and conversation will help both of you realise that.

To shake off the silly atmosphere around trans issues, think about how you might interact if they said they were training as a homeopathist, or converting to catholicism or Islam, or leaving their baby home alone while they pop to the shops, or whatever else you may feel strongly about. You wouldn't start a stand up row but you wouldn't hide that it worries you either.

This

Yes and actually make people double down

I regard it as harmful to let children eat a lot of ultra-processed food or have a smartphone.

But I would never tell the mums in my group that if they were wanging on about their kids getting phones.

I'll talk about what I do with my child but not anyone else's.

As for its being abusive, the thing is, presuming this started before any post-Cass changes, what the parent was doing was legal. I would regard it as similar to a parent using corporal punishment in areas where that is still legal. I don't agree with it, but it was a legal parenting choice when they made it, and they don't need my views.

Nailed it

Expressing sympathy would be a good start at getting a GC pov across in a supportive way actually. In TRA world it's all yay let's celebrate. Sympathy is a normal reaction to a child going on heavy duty medication that could be for life, cause them to need surgeries etc.

Depends on the discussion. It would for me if the discussion was about the exclusion of basic human rights for some.

Politics is down stream from personality so I doubt the so called 'friend' can actually truly function as one.

I suspect many people forget issues are often complex, individual & as such require professional expertise rather than the arrogance of armchair 'experts'.

We live in a dangerous post truth age now where populist thinking has dangerously over reached its capabilities & is normalised as legitimate arbiter. That many are actually quite comfortable with the politicisation of health care rather than the domain of health professionals is indeed a worrying trend.

As for its being abusive, the thing is, presuming this started before any post-Cass changes, what the parent was doing was legal. I would regard it as similar to a parent using corporal punishment in areas where that is still legal.

But it wasn't something that was considered perfectly normal and fine for decades, if not centuries, but the tide has changed on public opinion about it... it would have been extremely obvious to most people throughout time that you were either male or female and that was that - and that something like this, even if it had been possible back then, was very clearly not a good or wise thing to do.

We don't have laws specifically banning people from doing things that people are not doing in the first place; the laws have to catch up and be brought in because people start doing bad and dangerous things - often only once new technology and scientific breakthroughs start making it possible for them to even consider doing so.

Let’s chat about the “exclusion of basic human rights” - who and what do you mean?

Identity is universally recognised as a foundational human right. Under international law, this right encompasses two core pillars: legal identity and personal/social identity.

If the subject comes up I will share my views. But I don't start the topic. However I am still stunned by how uninformed and blinkered many people are, especially those who get their news from the Guardian or BBC. This week i was talking to an old friend who told me how her niece was transitioning ftm. And how much happier the niece seemed. So I talked to her about the impact of large doses of testosterone on young female bodies - from initial cocaine-like euphoria, to early menopause, osteoporosis and brain issues as well as hair/voice effects. And i recommended Hannah Barnes' book Time to Think. She was grateful for the information and maybe it will ripple through and do some good. Many of us, who've been in the Terf trenches, have become very knowledgeable about the practical issues around gender identity. Most people are clueless. I genuinely think we can do a lot of good if we impart this information sensitively in a timely manner.

Agree with this. The topic needs to be normalised rather than polarised.

Agree that we have psychologically regressed.
Actually one of the reasons was when we as a society started to talk in parallel and expected uncritical validation.

We stopped learning how to challenge politely and in a way which maintains the relationship.

We stopped being curious about the motivations and deeper thoughts of others.

It isn’t that long ago that “I see it differently “ or “I don’t think I share your opinion on that” were fairly acceptable.

That's a fair enough critique when it comes to simple straightforward issues but its not regression to accept one's limitations when it comes to professional expertise particularly on highly complex specialised matters like medical health issues. See vaccines as well as gender affirming care.

There's a humility that's been replaced by unwarranted arrogance & I suspect a great deal of that is based on increased political polarisation where expertise gets in the way. People's 'advice' is highly influenced by their personal biases normalising misinformation & disinformation Any layman giving 'challenging' 'advice' comes with a red flag these days & that's all the reason to avoid it.

So Rachel Dolezal is black right?

What basic human rights are being affected?