How do you handle gender identity disagreements within a long-standing social group?

[GuinevereOfTheRoyalCourt]

I am very firmly of the opinion that no child can be 'transgender', and that instead we should just embrace the fact that some are gender non-conforming and allow them to express themselves however they choose. I view the use of puberty blockers, x-sex hormones and 'gender-affirming' surgery on children as immoral.

I have participated in a club (my hobby) for many years which mostly includes middle-aged women of a similar age with teenage children. I have been aware for some time (at least 4 years) that one of the women probably had a trans child because of snippets of conversations that I've overheard and generic WhatsApp posts about trans rights.

Anyway, during a recent social gathering - one of the other ladies enquired about the child and it was clear that they have been transitioned for some time but are still only mid-teens. The mother of this child (who I've always got on with well in a superficial small-talk way) is clearly of a very similar mindset to Susie Green. I was quite horrified about what she was saying, but I sat in complete silence. All the other ladies were being really sympathetic and supportive.

This has really played on my mind. I hate confrontations and I really don't want to have any fallings out as this club is really important to me. However, I feel terrible that no other opinion was being expressed and that my silence effectively makes me complicit in the harm of a child.

How do other people deal with this sort of situation? I can't help feeling that most people don't even give much thought to this issue (hence the supportive voices from everyone else) and that we'll only stop this happening if they get to hear the 'other side'. But how can that happen if people like me feel too afraid to speak up?

I don't bring it up but I'm not going to sit and say nothing to someone spouting the born in the wrong body bollocks. I'm going to ask where all the middle aged trans men are. I'm going to ask why they think so many of the children referred to the Tavistock were autistic. Did they know 1 in 10 of them had a convicted sex offender for a parent. How do they feel about being forced to undress at work in front of a man.

In my former book group, which still gets together twice a year for a meal, I was the only one talking about the risk of trans ideology in 2016. They thought I was mad and it wouldn't affect anyone.

10 years on, four of us are active, campaigning Terfs and two have trans identifying young adult children (one MFT, one FTM) and are fully signed up to TWAW, TMAM.

We still manage to have a good time at the Christmas meal and the summer picnic. We don't have to discuss every subject we hold opinions on, it's ok to steer clear of some things when socialising.

I wouldn’t have said anything in your situation OP unless directly asked for my view. I don’t think that makes you complicit, people tend to be unreceptive and highly defensive to suggesting that they’re harming their child. I wouldn’t set too much store by the supportive noises either. Most parents realise it must be a very tricky situation to be in but agree with poster above that most middle aged mothers I’ve met have been in the GC side of things but people understandably don’t advertise that.

I have had a very robust discussion with my oldest friend group which got fairly heated. Interestingly on that occasion there was a clear divide between those of us who had children and those who didn’t with the parents saying it’s really worrying, we can’t just be kind. I ever so slightly lost my shit when one friend (v lefty male no kids) told me my children didn’t care what identity anyone was and they were a lot more tolerant than me and I was being hysterical (don’t think he actually used the word hysterical tbf). I said mine did care, as an example my DD very much cared about having to navigate the wee all over the sears in the new gender neutral toilets and the year 8 boys throwing around the san pro. Anyway, we’re all still friends but my point is that it’s the kind of discussion best suited to people you know you can agree to disagree with.

I think you are overestimating how much difference your opinion would make

Much as the culture war is my focus in politics, and I love to talk politics, I will not talk about GI, Brexit & Gaza with groups of friends who are less overtly political than me, and only with people one to one if I know we disagree but I'm guaranteed a reasonable hearing.
I almost see this as the old days of not bringing up religion or woo woo New Age stuff if I knew I didn't share other's extremely seriously held beliefs, or people weren't open to analysing, defending, discussing.
I've learnt from falling out with a couple of US-based online ex-"friends" of the Kamala Harris persuasion that it's only a matter of time before it's suggested I was a bigot for defending women's rights and free speech (how ironic) against typical Democrat leftist GI takes.
I'm glad I'm shot of them.
If I do bring up contentious issues now, it's around the subject of anarcho-tyranny changes in UK culture, to really get the measure of how badly people feel the UK has fallen.
But I certainly won't hog conversations, or look to bait others with culture wars like GI, even though for me these remain the barometer of what we are as a country.

Your silence does not make you complicit in the harm of a child.

teens in particular can develop all kinds of mental health issues including anorexia, bulimia, ocd, anxiety and depression.

telling the mum of a teen with a MH issue like anorexia exactly how you would deal with it and your thoughts on anorexia is rude.

in the same way a mum who has a teen who believes they are trans is going through a very tough time.

it’s not possible to get surgery or puberty blockers in the U.K. for under 18s anymore so the teen is unlikely to be able to access affirming care.

and frankly many teens do considerably more self harm through cutting and suicide attempts

i’d feel very sorry for the poor mum. She’s in a very tricky place.

you don’t need to go shooting your mouth off any more thsn of her kid was cutting herself.

I agree

Commonplace on mumsnet

I guess I'm just fearful that sympathy and silence is effectively encouraging this and means that more children (& families) get sucked in?

you have a very high regard for your opinion

Why are we so frightened of speaking up?

These idiots exist in a vacuum of be kind
They really should be told that humans can not change sex and that you'd rather not hear about how they are dealing with an unhappy teen-ager.

It's not fear, it's basic civility.

If someone said "I'd really rather not hear about your unhappy teenager" then that's bloody rude regardless of the source of the unhappiness.

There's a time and place to campaign, a friendship circle isn't one of them. Even if you're right, it's rude to foist your opinions on other people, unasked for.

My discussion with her took place away from the group. We bumped into each other on the street, she’d seen a comment I made on twitter responding to Alistair Campbell waffling on about ‘be kind’ to trans women and giving them access to female prisons and other spaces and challenged me on it.

Despite what the trans lobby would have us believe, the issue of neurodivergent teenage girls feeling uncomfortable in their changing bodies, and relentlessly exposed to sexist gender norms is not the same as fetishistic middle-aged men transitioning to whatever their warped idea of female is 🙄 for their own gratification. So we didn’t actually talk about her child at all. I stated my views (that single sex female spaces are the hill i would die on), she waved her ‘be kind’ jazz hands at me and we parted on good terms. She knows I support her, even if we don’t agree on everything.

I’d Speak out against cry it out too, if I felt that strongly about it.

I have had a very robust discussion with my oldest friend group which got fairly heated. Interestingly on that occasion there was a clear divide between those of us who had children and those who didn’t with the parents saying it’s really worrying, we can’t just be kind.

just a reminder that there are many child free / childless women on here who have been campaigning on this issue for a long time and also that some of the biggest TRA cheerleaders have been parents eg susie green, jolyman maughan, Joanne Harris . Can we not make this a parents v non parents please

You would start arguing / debating with a parent about their child? No, I wouldn’t.

Added to which , an absolute waste of breath

Speaking up unasked when the subject is an aquaintance's troubled teen and the context is a social situation is never going to change anyone's mind. It's more useful to talk about the subject in less heated contexts so other women with sex realist views know they're not the only ones.

From the couple of mothers I know who's children have got involved in this route, there were complex issues with learning disabilities/ serious bullying/ neurodivergence plus psychological abuse from sexist, unpredictable and homophobic male role model issues in the background. An aquaintance "speaking up" without knowing all that might actually have made her argument look less valid than they are because of being tone deaf to the slow motion car crash.

I think that’s the crux of it. You never know how you’re going to feel unless it’s your children/family in that situation. People are generally very protective of their children, even if their lives don’t align with their own view points.

Agree. A very old and once close friend of mine from uni now has a TiM son. We live at opposite ends of the country now and see each other very rarely. I murmured a few things about women’s toilets but generally steered clear.

I refuse to lie. I am polite, but firm. I cite evidence, particularly around 'affirmative' care, the parallels with eating disorders and the fact that it is grounded in outdated gender stereotypes.
Sometimes I add that Catholics believe the wafer and wine are transformed into the body and blood of Christ. I do not. I will however respect their religious belief, so long as they respect my belief in biological reality.

It is very difficult to manage and in the case of relationships or situations which matter to you, let it go. It's not worth the fall out and there's really nothing you can do to change anyone's mind if they're deep enough into gender ideology that they'd end a friendship or stop you participating in a group over it.

A good five or six years ago I lost some friends, I suspect at least partially over my gender critical views. I didn't really care because it had become apparent that there were 'correct' views in this group and I was fed up of treading on eggshells. But I have other friendships which matter a lot to me, we have differing views on gender so we just don't go there. It's a shame because we've always been able to talk about everything but it's just a safely fenced off conversational quicksand these days.

I did find myself very nearly ostracised out of another group for the sin of a comment about humans not changing sex, where there was a lot of whispering behind backs and comments made about what an awful person I was. It was immensely upsetting so I keep my head down on this front now because I don't want that to happen again and the group overall is important to me.

If I'm asked an opinion I would offer a neutral statement that I'm gender critical, I don't think humans change sex, there's only two sexes and women's sex-based rights are important. Then we can either leave it there or discuss further if I feel they're interested or want to talk in good faith/with respect. Otherwise I just say that I've stated my views and it's best we leave it there.

Sometimes making a point is just not worth the hurt it will cause.

That’s not fair, I didn’t do that, I don’t need your reminder. Obviously many people with GC views are not parents. My point was made in the context of the OP saying that the other parents in her example were seemingly supportive of child transition and I was attempting to say that might not actually be the case using an anecdote from my own experience.

These threads make me ever more grateful for my social groups and friendship circles.

This is never raised. Never discussed. Not avoided. Just so much other things to chat and discuss about that something like this? Nah. Life too short and busy when you have the joy of getting together with friends to chat about shit like this. Added to which… time with friends is precious once we have families / jobs / responsibilities - I don’t want fraught debates. Not that they would be I suspect with my friends

Agree with this.

As you point out it's the genderists bringing the subject up - they're the ones being rude. They are breaking what used to be the rules of social discourse. And they fully expect no pushback even though their stance does not stand up to even the slightest logical scrutiny or consideration of the evidence.

Part of the reason this Emperor's New Clothes delusion has got so far is because only one side are allowed to speak up and express a political opinion about it in polite society and it's a reinforcing effect. So people who bring it up think no-one objects and everyone who does is some kind of knuckle dragging Reform voting dimwit (when in fact the people who object are far better informed - the evidence only points one way).

If everyone agreed not to mention controversial topics then fine, but when other people are bringing up what essentially amounts to 'that naked bloke has invisible clothes on and JKR deserves rape and death threats because she says she can see his knob' then it's more tricky.

I have spoken up - I've defended JKR by questioning people who've claimed she's a bigot 'have you read what she actually wrote - not what people say about what she wrote? I have. I saw nothing bigoted there.' and then possibly later on ' Did you know how many millions she gives to charities for women and children? Have you seen what her charity Lumos does?' Etc. I try and push back relatively gently on specifically what they've said.

It is more difficult when it's a child, but you can do it. Are you concerned about the side effects of the drugs (if they're medically transitioning or considering it)? Are you sure your doctor is on top of that? I've heard there's not much data on the long-term impacts?

Sometimes just a 'not everyone agrees with this position so maybe it's better not to talk about divisive political issues in this group.....' which is essentially just pointing out that the genderists have broken the unspoken social rule about politics.

It's just so heartbreaking that we live in a world where friendships and even cordial acquaintances are made or broken based on single issues and politics

only very superficial friendships

I would entirely disagree with that. Good friendships can be undermined by this ideology as much as any other, such is its perniciousness. The fear of being 'cancelled' or seen not to be progressive/kind/an ally - never mind the effect on your job or other friendships if you're seen to have the wrong opinions or even associated with someone who has the wrong opinions - looms long.

Ok your friendships could be destroyed by a disagreement over such issues

My close friendships wouldn’t be. Thirty years of support and love upended by a disagreement over a discussion? Nope