How do you handle gender identity disagreements within a long-standing social group?

[GuinevereOfTheRoyalCourt]

I am very firmly of the opinion that no child can be 'transgender', and that instead we should just embrace the fact that some are gender non-conforming and allow them to express themselves however they choose. I view the use of puberty blockers, x-sex hormones and 'gender-affirming' surgery on children as immoral.

I have participated in a club (my hobby) for many years which mostly includes middle-aged women of a similar age with teenage children. I have been aware for some time (at least 4 years) that one of the women probably had a trans child because of snippets of conversations that I've overheard and generic WhatsApp posts about trans rights.

Anyway, during a recent social gathering - one of the other ladies enquired about the child and it was clear that they have been transitioned for some time but are still only mid-teens. The mother of this child (who I've always got on with well in a superficial small-talk way) is clearly of a very similar mindset to Susie Green. I was quite horrified about what she was saying, but I sat in complete silence. All the other ladies were being really sympathetic and supportive.

This has really played on my mind. I hate confrontations and I really don't want to have any fallings out as this club is really important to me. However, I feel terrible that no other opinion was being expressed and that my silence effectively makes me complicit in the harm of a child.

How do other people deal with this sort of situation? I can't help feeling that most people don't even give much thought to this issue (hence the supportive voices from everyone else) and that we'll only stop this happening if they get to hear the 'other side'. But how can that happen if people like me feel too afraid to speak up?

That's nice, dear. Good for you.

“Dear”

shudder

I have experienced this close at hand when a longstanding close friend of my DH cut him off when she was transing one of her children and asked him outright if he'd support her and accept her child as the opposite sex and, thinking that an obviously groomed parent could still be reasoned with, he recommended watchful waiting rather than puberty blockers.

I don't make any secret of where I stand but also recognise that I'm not going to help by getting into conflict in U3A knitting groups or whatever and should direct my energy towards supporting people who have platforms.

It's harmed some of my friendships. I don't generally talk about it but if the subject comes up I will make my opinions known.

I have friends involved in gender services who are fully signed up to affirmative (drastic) care and others who parent children with gender dysphoria alongside other mental health difficulties.

A couple of these are bio-realists which causes conflict with their teens and others fully affirm unquestioningly because in essence they have been scared that if they don't their kids will kill themselves.

Ironically the TERF-ern parented gender confused kids are both close to me. I respect their choice of names, but not pronouns and push back on serious body modification/ breast binding etc....

I had a fairly robust conversation at christmas with one of them about how to define womanhood. They brought the topic up and I did check if this really was an avenue of conversation to explore as I knew we were going to disagree. By his definitions (mostly appearance based) he is a woman and neither his mum or I are. Go figure. We are still friends and have actually been texting this morning.

With the die hard TWAW brigade I generally don't talk about these issues as I know they won't budge their opinion. My opinion alone has damaged some relationships. The only person I've engaged in extended debate influences central NHS policy and I did this as she has the potential to cause real harm to patients by allowing mixed sex clinical care areas. However, my doing so has really damaged our relationship and I don't think it will ever recover.

I do talk more to "be kind" friends who haven't been exposed to any GC facts or really thought about it beyond mainstream news. In my experience actual facts and challenges to ideas such as "most vulnerable group in society" help to crystallise thinking and several are now quietly GC. None join me in activism though.

In a similar situation, I kept my GC views to myself but asked the petson (auntie of a MtF young adult) if they ( parents and yhe lad himself) hsd looked into the long-term health effects of cross hormones. Pointed out that there are lotsof young men these days having to use zimmer frames because of osteoporeosis.

In other words, left my opinion out of it, but gently brought up the question of the side effects.

I have this with an ex friend. But the thing is she has made it extremely clear that anyone who expresses any doubt is an evil transphobe and a bigot dedicated to the persecution of the most marginalised group on earth. So I say nothing and just keep my distance. I know my input would be rejected. I don’t offer explicit support but I also don’t challenge. It does make me very sad though as I care about the child and wish I could help.

Reading the OP's initial post, it does sound like the trans child has his mum trained to be 8in only-affirm mode, and is now weaponising her against the OP to ensure that the OP either bends to his will and Never Disagrees With Him Ever Again, or is excluded from the family.

This and I really do disagree but I can’t live other people’s lives for them.

This is exactly it for me. I would never dream of giving unwarranted advice to someone who is struggling with a child when I am not walking in their same shoes. However, when the conversation becomes overtly political (all the child's problems are caused by Terfs/JKR etc), it is desperately uncomfortable to listen to and know that this will go unchallenged. I do wonder if people would be as open if they weren't affirming a child confused about their gender identify.

I'd also actually like to be supportive and to be able to talk freely as I have done with friends whose children have had mental health challenges such as anorexia or autism. I've never worried about offering different perspectives and ideas to them, and I'm not aware of causing offence even if they didn't find what I said useful or agree with it.

This is exactly it for me. I would never dream of giving unwarranted advice to someone who is struggling with a child when I am not walking in their same shoes. However, when the conversation becomes overtly political (all the child's problems are caused by Terfs/JKR etc), it is desperately uncomfortable to listen to and know that this will go unchallenged.

sit with the discomfort. But don’t pull out your soapbox and start debating the issue with a parent who is likely going through one hell of a shit journey now with their child. And the fact you think by not saying something is going to encourage anyone to a damn thing…. Would indicate you maybe have your own issues to address @GuinevereOfTheRoyalCourt

That’s the thing. Why should this be a debate? I’ve no interest in debating anyone, it’s an utterly pointless exercise ‘won’ by whoever is the most articulate. No, I just want to be able to have conversations, sharing snd listening to different perspectives. This is how we all grow and develop our ideas and thinking as a society.

No, I just want to be able to have conversations, sharing snd listening to different perspectives.

This. Yes.

This is what has been lost. This black and white, right or wrong, good or bad, approach is deeply, psychologically and socially unhealthy in current society.

It is as if we have psychologically regressed en mass.
How did this happen?

Mature functioning is in grappling with the complexities, and in recognising shared humanity despite differences of opinion.

I despair.

It hasn't been lost, it's just that the time and place for it isn't with someone who is currently having personal difficulties related to the subject at hand.

It would be rude to start a debate of the merits or otherwise of the benefits system with someone who's just lost their job and is struggling on UC, or whose husband has just had a debilitating accident.

It would be rude to start discussing the holes in theology with someone who has turned to their church having just suffered a bereavement.

And it would be rude to start debating the harms of transitioning teenagers with someone who is going through that very tricky situation.

You said it.

So why would you pull out your soap box and attempt a chat with a parent enduring this?

Surely you see the irony of your post?

I agree that robust debate is the best way forward for any society. However, there is a time and a place, and this isn’t it. You will not get a good response if you criticise or challenge a parent directly on this, it just won’t work.

The parent doesn’t want different perpectives, or a healthy debate on the issues, and would likely take any disagreement as criticism of their parenting.

Like it or not, they are probably not able to be unbiased about this particular issue - because it is directly related to their own child. They won’t see it as some abstract discussion about a topic in the news, to them it’s only about their child’s health and wellbeing.

They have likely been gaslit about child suicide, and told that affirmation is the only way to help and support their child, and so they have to convince themselves that this is the right path and that they are doing a good thing.

Any discussion of the harm it may be doing to their child is probably too painful to think about.

Even though I disagree with them, I also feel very sorry for any parent in that situation.

i go to my book club for book chat, holiday chat, job updates, family chat etc.

If someone rocked up raring to go with wanting a discussion about stuff like this….
You wouldn’t see me for dust.

Trans isn't special. I refuse to play along with this myth that you either agree with them 100% or hate them and want them to die. How are we going to dispel that if we treat doubt about the trans agenda as some kind of taboo that can't be mentioned in polite company? There's a middle ground between full blown debate and pretending you don't have concerns.

It’s nothing to do with you and nothing to do with the club so stay out of if it.

On that basis, incidental chat at groups would be rather limited and egotistical.

In this case, it is utterly pointless for the Op to volunteer her opinions. The mother is hardly going to say to OP “oooh yes, you we totally right. I have to get my DC to change track.” If the OP attempts to discuss her views, the likely outcome will be irritation and a ruining of the nice vibe in the group. There’s a time and a place. This is not it.

Sometimes other people have valuable experiences or points of view, and can be helpful. Just because you are at a book club and don’t have a parent with dementia doesn’t mean you can’t support or discuss the care of elderly people with dementia (insert issue here).

That’s different…… hopefully the dementia discussion would be supportive but the discussion the OP wants to have is likely to be seen as a criticism.

Probably not, in most social groups friends end up giving people unwanted advice on any and all topics, and this is just another. People are very good at dealing with unwanted advice from friends, and know it is well meaning. The key is that it is well meaning and from friends. Not direct criticism or ideological attacks from strangers.