Owen Jones on Facebook

[storminabuttercup]

‘If trans women use men’s toilets, they will be subjected to humiliation, abuse and violence.

Anyone with any sense knows this.

Which is why in practice trans women will not use men’s toilets, and will just increasingly be driven out of society.’

let’s just drive women out of society then eh? Because the same stands for women having to share with men in dresses ffs

have I missed something btw? Seems a random
post for a Sunday morning

He’s getting roasted on that one!

I suspect that if you are going to get assualted etc. in the males toilets its likely to be in one of the stalls/cubicles, not the main area.

As a man old enough to be quite vulnerable if anyone decided to be physically abusive towards me, I do not want to lose urinals. They are very efficient and allow the cubicles to be used by those who actually need them. There are rarely many cubicles in the gents because few are needed. Old men with bladder and prostate problems, and men of any age with IBS, tend to appreciate the typical lack of queues.

I have been nervous in the gents a handful of times, and experienced or seen violence or sexual abuse in the gents – never. Admittedly I have use common sense and avoided toilets with a reputation for cottaging or dogging, so unpleasant graffiti and messy / smelly toilets are the worst common experiences.

OJ has blocked me on Twitter, so sadly I am unable to tell him what I think of his ridiculous argument. The man is a knob.

Then there needs to be a move away from one large room several people use at the same time, to individual rooms you can see are empty before you walk in from corridors.

But as I said, if male bathrooms aren’t safe due to male violence risks then the solutions and redesigns need to come from male groups. Not just shove males in female bathrooms to fix the problem for only a small subset of the male people affected by risk of male violence.

And yet there's a mystifying lack of stories in the press about transwomen being attacked in male toilets. I'm sure much of today's media would be all over this, given half a chance? Perhaps the truth is, that these are very rare events indeed?

I tried to find evidence of this and actually found more evidence of transwomen being attacked in female toilets!! Statistically they’d be safer in the men’s!!

So trans men aren’t at risk in men’s prisons? It’s just a wing making trans people safer. Ultimately if we can have wings that make some of the worst predators in the world safe, we can extend the courtesy to trans prisoners without forcing them in women’s spaces or keep them safe from men.
Im not suggesting it’s for the general population, just trans.

But unisex means males and females would both be on the wing and that would not keep transmen safe at all?

Surely, if LOJ and his followers are correct, trans women are at risk of enforced genital checks in the ladies? So no safer from assault than in the men’s?

Unless… unless all of these assaults on trans people are just a fabrication to get what they want?

“ Trans men “ could have their own wing in a women’s prison

Fine. They shouldn’t be with general population though. Both prisons need a wing for trans prisoners safety that isn’t encroaching on the safety of women. However they do it, it just needs to be safe as possible for everyone. I would say that sex offenders then conveniently changing their gender should undergo psychiatric evaluation to ensure it is a gender issue and not a sexual predator trying to access women or be put somewhere they deem safer. Which in any case a sex offender is choosing to transition, I suspect it will be the case. A good friend of mine made friends with a newly trans woman last year it transpired it was a peadophile trying his luck. My friend was genuinely upset as she felt this bloke was just a very vulnerable TW. Fucking horrid.

I'd be interested in where any attacks that might of happen took place, because if they're generally in the 'trans' community areas like clubs etc, it's even less of a problem for the general population. There'd be no need to mess around with the arrangements that suit everyone for years, it might be something the 'trans' community need to sort out for themselves. Leave women out of it.

I don't think you need a specific trans wing, more so a wing for the more obviously vulnerable prisoners. Having a 'trans wing' would simply serve to perpetuate this nonsense.

I know in the prison my friend works at the vulnerable wing is basically anyone who can have something like diabetes, or be a raging nonce. So I suppose the issue with a trans man being on a vulnerable wing might mean they’re with rapists who are also classed as vulnerable comparatively to gen pop because the other prisoners might attack them. Not sure if that’s across the board.
Either way, women prisoners need protecting from men who have committed sex crimes and suddenly are deciding to identity as women and transwomen should be protected from male prisoners. I appreciate it’s going to be more costly, but something needs to be done.

Quite. Vulnerable and harmless are not the same thing.

Look Owen, it is entirely possible for men NOT to treat other men badly.

It just means men 'being kind' for a change.

I know it's possible. I know many men that would be very happy to ignore what other men are wearing in the loos (and generally prefer no eye contact)

How's about you campaign for that. I'll join you.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant
Why is it only the Ladies that becomes a Gender Neutral Toilet, why is it never the Men's.

Because the men's boggers have piss on the seats and all over the floor, so nobody really wants them.

Same.

I am about to make an entirely pointless anecdote.

I'm a woman of the old-fashioned kind.

Last year I spent 7 days in Vienna, and spent 4 of those days going into the mens toilets because I thought 'Herren' meant 'For Her'. At no point did any man threaten me, or indeed even indicate I should not be there. I DID vaguely wonder why Viennese women's toilets had urinals in them and why they were populated by so many men. Until the penny dropped. (I am quite intelligent, promise).

I just do not believe that the vast majority of men want to do much more than piss and get out. I really do not believe that TW are at such great threat in such great numbers that they have to impose themselves - and their fetishes- into women's spaces. I really REALLy believe that if that is such an issue then the campaigning for accommodations should be directed at men. Not us, who throughout time and space have been forced to accommodate the sheer utter predatory bullshit perpetrated by men over and over again.

Well, obviously men should be in the male estate and women in the female estate. I don't think a woman who identifies as a man is going to be excessively vulnerable in a female prison.

No, but female prisoners may not want a male presenting bearded bio woman there. It really could be triggering for some women. Let’s appreciate that most likely if you’re a woman who’s been to prison you’ve not had the easiest life.

When it's said that trans people are being gaslighted by their own supporters, Owen Jones is example #1. The vast majority of transwomen used male toilets without incident up until the point that they 'came out', usually well into adulthood. The large major of those continued to use the men's for some time even after coming out, again without incident, i.e. were transwomen using the men's toilet! It was entirely up to the individual when they stopped using the men's toilets and started using the women's. In what world is that reasonable? In a world where women have no rights. That demonstrates the intellectual dishonesty of the argument and the intoxication Jones has with his own self righteousness.

For Jones' argument to have any merit whatsoever it must be heavily qualified that we are considering trans individuals only who are making considerable effort to 'pass' - that these efforts: body modifiable, hormones, wearing women's closes and wearing a full face of makeup will provoke men to behave violently or will make them unacceptably uncomfortable and that women will not be made equivalently uncomfortable my having actual biological men in their company. But in fact many are not making that effort and there's no mechanism to enforce that effort, i.e. Jones' argument is invalid on its face.

The rest of the arguments on this thread are important, because they address the the heavily qualified version - considering those trans individuals who make considerable effort to 'pass' - they still shouldn't be allowed to use women's facilities they're still men. But it's utterly ridiculous that a journalist for a major newspapers is allowed to make such irresponsible and false arguments time and again, radically distorting what the issues at stake are.

Well said. Also, many men are deeply uncomfortable around trans women. They don't want to accommodate them in the gents - they want them in the ladies as a way of keeping the gents for men they approve of. Owen Jones is perpetuating this attitude by refusing to encourage men to be more welcoming, despite huge numbers of replies to his post urging him to do so.

For a lot of men, trans women are a concept - a theoretical, vulnerable "doll" whose needs must be satisfied, and the easiest way to do this is for women to do all the work. They are often less comfortable with the reality of an actual trans woman, and definitely unhappy when they are the ones asked to do anything about it.

@DeposedPresident you've gone and triggered a very old memory! My grandad, on holiday with us in Austria c. 1970: "Never mind the Herren, where's the Hisn?" 😅

Also, many men are deeply uncomfortable around trans women. They don't want to accommodate them in the gents - they want them in the ladies as a way of keeping the gents for men they approve of.

I hesitate to speak for 'all men' (especially on MN!), but I really don't think that is true. I don't think most men think transwomen should use the Ladies. Alongside their wives, daughters, etc. I agree that it is not women's issue to solve.