Owen Jones on Facebook

[storminabuttercup]

‘If trans women use men’s toilets, they will be subjected to humiliation, abuse and violence.

Anyone with any sense knows this.

Which is why in practice trans women will not use men’s toilets, and will just increasingly be driven out of society.’

let’s just drive women out of society then eh? Because the same stands for women having to share with men in dresses ffs

have I missed something btw? Seems a random
post for a Sunday morning

It's some mental gymnastics by OJ to think that a man going into the gents is in danger from other men, but a man going into the ladies isn't a danger to women. Perhaps he's totally cowed by the women in his life!😂😂😂

They are not 'left without facilities',

Are these desired 'faciities' things like bins for sanpro that they can rummage through?

OJ is backchatting JKR. He still doesn't get it.

Owen Jones
1h
The risk of a trans woman being abused or assaulted in the men’s toilet per visit = extremely high.

The risk of a woman being abused or assaulted in the women’s toilet per visit = extremely low.

You are proving the point. A way higher larger percentage of men are violent criminals. We know that. Sort that out. Maybe men need to pay for bouncers in the toilets since men are so crazy.

However I don't think toilets for guys are that dangerous.

He has absolutely no evidence for that.

To be fair it's probably because the men's contain urinals, and the women's only have cubicles (where we know nothing untoward can ever happen because they're cubicles, right, and who cares who's peeing next to you...).

The additional issue that the queue for the women's is always twice as long as the men's, even before you start inviting all and sundry in, is of course never given any consideration.

Edited to add: that famous photo of Eddie Izzard in the queue for the women's toilet wouldn't happen with a woman queueing for the men's, because there is never a queue for the men's!

The mens have urinals AND cubicles. Anyone with half an ounce of sense would have changed the men's to gender neutral years ago.

@Shedmistress I don't understand your post. Women don't want to walk past men pissing in urinals to get to the cubicles.

Women won't go near them yes. They will use the womens.

Whereas men can. Even men who say they are women.

It is the simplest solution to the problem.

Oh I see. As long as women understand that "gender neutral" is a code for "actually the men's"!

That's what gender neutral does actually mean.

I don't really understand this either. What is it about current design of men's toilets that you think is unsatisfactory? Or do you mean, leave the toilets as is, but rename them from Mens to Gender-Neutral (ho ho ho)?

I remain unconvinced by this 'not safe in the Mens' argument. Men's toilets can be dirty and smelly, but I am old, and I have never, in my life, seen any act of violence in a toilet. Which is not to say they never happen, of course. But high-risk? Only for the delicate flowers who find getting out of bed in the morning a challenge, I'd say.

Irrelevant now anyway, the guidance has landed and is clear, there have to be single sex and gender neutral provided.

Those happy to use gender neutral will be fine, they can crack on, and those who need single sex spaces for access will also be fine. Possibly understanding a little more about why these 'delicate flowers' exist might be enlightening, but whatever, those flowers aren't delicate enough to care about sneering so long as they can have accessible facilities too.

One of the historically given reasons against gender neutral facilities being the answer (now they are, and obviously the only fair and reasonable one), was activists claiming that if women were permitted to have a single sex facility alongside a gender neutral one, they'd all choose the single sex facility and not want to go in the gender neutral one which would be unpleasant and 'outing' for people with gender identities. This kind of doesn't jive with the whole 'weird delicate flowers, gender neutral is the way for all normies' kind of thing.

I guess we'll see whether women passionately supportive of and happy with gender neutral do go there, or whether the activist concern is proven right. Or whether women's ongoing experiences of gender neutral facilities in action means that they become less keen and go back to the single sex option. Which, thankfully, the 'delicate flowers' fought for, and will be there for them should they ever need it.

Yay the delicate flowers, eh?

OJ doesn’t want to understand though does he. Obviously the single sex exceptions were set up for a reason and someone somewhere must have thought about which spaces were places where women would be more vulnerable. At what age does he think male children are safe to use the men’s toilets by themselves I wonder?

Male violence means the set up of male toilets as one large room designed for multiple people to use at the same time, is not safe for more vulnerable members of the male community. I have no problem accepting that, what I don’t accept is that a) the only males who are vulnerable to male violence in a public toilet are transwomen and b) the only solution is to put transwomen in female toilets.

This set up of toilet facilities is risky for many men who are vulnerable to male violence. Therefore the solution needs to be a redesign of male toilets /spaces.

Exactly how bathrooms should be redesigned (possibly removing urinals, or changing to individual rooms not several loos in one room, or different layouts etc) is something men should sort out and I would fully support trans organisations campaigning to make male bathrooms safer for transwomen.

I am sick of the problem in this debate not being male violence and people like OJ thinking the problem is women not trying to fix the problems caused by male violence.

Cross out 'gents'.

Laminate a sign saying 'Gender Neutral'

Stick sign up

Done.

Yep. Women don’t want to use gender neutral toilets. I was in a queue for the ladies at a museum and staff pointed out that the gender neutral toilet was free. Not one single woman moved from the queue to use the gender neutral toilet.

Owen is getting a huge pushback on twitter which is heartening to see.

Why on earth should there be “ unisex prison wings”? There should be no men in women’s prisons, they should be on their own separate “ trans women “ wing in men’s prisons

That was a follow on from 'What Little Owen Wants'.

The whole talk of a third space (fourth really) is irrelevant though isn’t it? They don’t want to use the a neutral space, they want us to accept they are women, let them into our space so we can tell them we like their frocks while we was our hands, they get a kick out of it.

theres a lot standing up to him but a heck of a lot saying ‘I don’t mind if trans women use the same loo as me’ like they have the final say. Most women do mind they just aren’t shouting about it because you get labelled a terf

It's not irrelevant because it disarms the "just want to pee" argument. We know that for some It's about the fetishistic thrill and for others it's about the power to command people to lie while for some they are so deep-sunk into their delusion that it's dangerous not to play along (like the ward full of Napoleons in the asylum) but they can avoid talking about all those if there aren't readily available 3rd/4th spaces.

It really doesn't matter how many women declare that they are happy sharing facilities with a transwoman. None of them have the right to consent on behalf of a woman who doesn't or remove her right to a single-sex option.

But it's over now. The law is there, the guidance is clear.

Men cannot enter women's single sex spaces however they identify, and additional gender neutral facilities must be provided.

He is still going over on X

https://x.com/i/status/2058842046584979760

And he has also come out with this corker 🙄🙄

https://x.com/i/status/2058844165547442274

Owen Jones is not stupid. Of course he can see the gaping flaws in his own arguments. It must be exhausting trying to justify this to himself.

Yeah I worded it badly but it’s not what they want!