Aren't transpeople still a tiny minority?

[Waheymum]

Over about fifteen years, I've noticed growing awareness and concern about transpeople. This may be my age and simply a case of when people I knew started to transition.
What I'm wondering is whether there are statistics further to the last census on how many people are transitioning or have transitioned. This is because I'm pretty sure that men are still a bigger threat to women's safety than transgender (m-f) women are. I'm not saying that no transwoman poses a risk to women, I'm querying whether, statistically, I'm better off crossing the road to avoid a cisgender man or a transgender woman (if, hypothetically, one were on each side of the road).

That sounds like you see and agree how they are all ridiculous…
so why is agreeing that someone is the sex they are not, good?

1. Do you equally berate Stonewall et al for their moral panic and "hysteria" about the dangers to trans people which are also not borne out by stats, or is it just women wanting to maintain our legal, political and social existence you deem not important enough?
2. Perhaps no one you know cares. Plenty of people I know care and are doing something about it.
3. I, like many women on here, am a left wing feminist. That you apparently (a) assume anyone who stands up for the reality and rights of female people must be "right wing", and (b) think if something is being said by the "right wing" then this de facto is reason enough to dismiss it out of hand with no further thought tells me my assessment of you was fair.

Actually, I think what you are asking is that if we had an opinion about a close family member's personal life that would upset them, would we tell them? I think you're saying that we should pause to tell the truth to save their feelings.

What you are doing is trying to make women here feel responsible for upsetting your son because your son finds reality upsetting.

I'm sorry if that's the case, but no.

You and your son need to face reality because I will not sacrifice my daughter's rights for the sake of a fundamental truth that your son finds upsetting.

It might just be me, @Diverze, but you are being a bit vague and indirect about what it is you want. You want us to stop calling out the fetishists? No, we won't. You want us to stop calling out the HSTS who appropriate our name and use our services? No, we won't. You want us to be nicer to the vulnerable autistic youth caught up in a social contagion? Surely, surely you are aware that many of us are spending significant amounts of time and money, while losing friends and keeping quiet at work, in order to remove this contagion from schools and to stop the human rights level of abuse that calls itself 'gender affirming care'. Is that not enough for you?

Did it? That’s rather creative of them.

I’m confused. So is that a no to him being affirmed if he chose to identify as a six year old? Why? What is the difference between claiming to be an age you’re not and claiming to be a woman when you’re not?

It's not about upsetting them, it's about fracturing relationships.

You have a clear view of the truth, that men are men and women are women. You don't believe in the "essence of gender" that makes trans people believe they are different in the way they experience sex and gender.

Neither of us can step inside the reality of the other party.

It's a bit like you being an absolutist atheist and me being a true believing Christian. You would say it's obvious that there's not a magic grandpa in the sky looking over us all. But others strongly believe that you are wrong in that belief even though logic and science would suggest that evidence for a God is nonexistent.

I am frustrated that you cannot see that I am trying to walk a path here between women's rights and trans people's truly held beliefs. Whether I believe it or not is immaterial. I could describe my child as a Christian even though I am an atheist. I don't go around telling them there's obviously no God, I don't disrespect that, but I do say we aren't all praying around the table. You are free to go to church with other Christians, but you cannot go into a secular space and require them all to worship with you.

I will never be in agreement with you on this. Your child's rights are in conflict with my child's rights. I perceived that and am trying to find a way that my child can be happy and not inveigle into spaces and places they are not wanted. You are just sat over there saying over and over that there is no God and my child should not be allowed to be a Christian.

The point that many people miss is that it's real to trans people. They aren't pretending to feel like their gender and body don't match. They aren't making it up. It's to them just as real an experience as you saying there's no such thing. To them it is truth.

I do actually think that one day we are all going to have to have a serious conversation about and with people with autism. Their needs, their vulnerabilities and how far society is prepared to adjust to them. Another thread, another day maybe.

@Diverze The thing about religions is that they are very hard to disprove.
Your son might feel that he is a woman but it is easy to disprove that with GCSE biology.
I can accept he feels something isn't right for him, but it's as PP (Flirts?) said earlier - he needs to rename whatever it is he is feeling.

@Diverze I will never be in agreement with you on this. Your child's rights are in conflict with my child's rights
so you believe that your child should have the right to do what they want regardless of legislation?
that the theology of trans is equivalent to factual biology?
if your child is for example type O+ blood, but wants to identify as type AB- and they require a transfusion, will you ignore the science and go with their belief because they are equally important? Even though this would create a life threatening immuno response?
they KNOW they should be AB- despite what biology says?

It may feel real to them.

But it hasn't got any objective, verifiable evidence behind it. It's a metaphysical belief about the self.

Thays fine, people are free to believe what they want about themselves, but that's of no consequence to anyone else.

Just as a person might believe they have a soul. No one else is under any obligation to pretend they believe that too. It's a belief that feels real to some but is rejected by others.

@Diverze I expect you have read this. I'll post it anyway, because it seems very pertinent to your situation:

https://x.com/prof_curiosity1/status/2046106359247077884

Where have I said they have the right to do what they want regardless of legislation? My whole series of posts is making it clear I am not in favour of this. In any case it's not illegal to be trans.

Well what rights is your child (well he’s in his mid twenties?) not currently got?

I hadn't read that and found it interesting, thank you.

Your child's rights are in conflict with my child's rights.

What do you mean?

Your child is an adult male who believes he is a female. He is not.

My child is a female who is actually a child and actually female.

Your child's rights are only in conflict with mine because yours chooses it. Mine is actually female, not through choice but due to biology.

Yours is male and had decided to pretend to be female. Who should make allowances? You want my female actual child to budge for your adult male child?

I actually don't care at this point whether he fully believes it or not. I want my daughter to be able to go swimming independently without me having to worry that there might be a man in her changing room.

Your adult son gets to have trans swim sessions. Any women encroaching on those? No. Of course not.

My child daughter does not have that safety because of trans identifying males. The sign on the door to her changing room said until very recently 'women - all genders'. She has neither the capacity or the ability to deal with men who might appear in her space. And you think your adult son is at risk?

I can believe that your son thinks it's real. I'm not in any way missing the point. He might well think it's the truth. But it isn't. That is the thing you are missing - I don't care whether he fully believes it - it is not true. People in psychosis believe all sorts of shit. Doesn't make their delusion meaningful.

You want me to sacrifice my female child's safety because your adult male child can't accept reality. No.

Yes I agree we are sitting here and saying yes as a male he's a boy and will become a man. It's absolute. If he wants to transition as an adult and live as a Transwoman that's fine by me but he'll still be male and should stay out of female spaces. Your job as a parent should be to help him navigate this reality not manipulate women to budge up move boundaries and keep quiet to 'be nice'. I'm glad your autistic son has found trans spaces helpful but pretending he's a she is damaging to women and the conflict of rights you pretend to care about results in a urinary leash, murder and rape for women.

No, I don't want to sacrifice your child's safety. I don't want women to budge up. I have repeatedly said as much throughout this thread.

I want a world in which my (adult) child and yours both get to live safely. One where mine can access 3rd spaces and live in dignity.

You simplify the situation when you say my young person "chooses" to be trans. There was no choice to be autistic. There was no choice to feel a disconnect between body and mind. My DC didn't choose to be taught about gender versus sex. That "being trans" might or might not be the answer as to why my YP has never felt a sense of belonging or a secure identity is not as simple as a casual choice. It's a deeply held belief. Using terminology elsewhere in the thread, people don't "choose" to be deluded. Anorexic people aren't "choosing" not to eat. "People in psychosis" aren't choosing to be psychotic.

To you it's a simple lie and question of accepting reality. If I just tell my DC that he's male and always will be and stop pandering to him, this silly mess will all be sorted out. All I can tell you is that when it happens in your family it is substantially, ground shakingly more difficult than that. I wish it were that simple.

@Diverze why are you putting trans alongside anorexia?
do you believe then that anorexic people should have the confirmation and compliance that is being expected and demanded for trans collusion?
”yes of course… a BMI of 11 is absolutely fine, you look great, although let’s see if we can get down to BMI 10? Anyone who doesn’t agree is clearly just hateful!”

No people don’t “choose” to be anorexic. But we don’t affirm them with weight loss drugs and gastric band surgery do we? If you want to call him Helen that’s up to you, but you can’t get upset when people choose not to join in the affirmation.

@Diverze, I think you’ve acknowledged that we were the ones who started out wanting to be reasonable & find solutions that worked for everyone, & got NO DEBATE FUCK OFF TERFS in return. And we’ve been pretty much driven to fight back because talking nicely didn’t work.

Now you’re saying that we should be talking nicely with the reasonable transpeople to make everything ok - I know you say that your child & friends are like that, but are they the reasonable transpeople who are going to negotiate nicely with Sex Matters et al with the result of single sex spaces for us & unisex spaces for them? How are they going to push their way past the TRAs who demand absolute acceptance & submission?

No we don't affirm, because anorexia will lead to death if unchecked. Yet despite not being affirmed, a number of people die anyway and some struggle with eating their entire life.
If not affirming was a simple solution anorexia would be much easier to deal with, wouldn't it?

No, they aren't, because as a cohort they are highly introverted with significant social communication deficits. They were always going to exist in liminal spaces.

I wish that TRAs and 'sex realists' would recognise their existence and advocate with them in mind. They are much less bothered about being allowed in women's spaces and much more bothered at feeling like there is a space for them.

But you’re still not acknowledging that most sex realists are perfectly happy with any solution that keeps them out of our spaces & would always have been fine with the unisex spaces idea.

It’s the TRAs you need to persuade. Not us. This is a conversation to have with TransActual or whoever their main organising orgs are nowadays now they all hate Stonewall.

Edited to add that it’s not fair to expect women who have been fighting the battle to keep our spaces for years to also take responsibility for trans-identifying boys. You would never expect the TRAs to advocate for traumatised girls & women who couldn’t share spaces with men.