Aren't transpeople still a tiny minority?

[Waheymum]

Over about fifteen years, I've noticed growing awareness and concern about transpeople. This may be my age and simply a case of when people I knew started to transition.
What I'm wondering is whether there are statistics further to the last census on how many people are transitioning or have transitioned. This is because I'm pretty sure that men are still a bigger threat to women's safety than transgender (m-f) women are. I'm not saying that no transwoman poses a risk to women, I'm querying whether, statistically, I'm better off crossing the road to avoid a cisgender man or a transgender woman (if, hypothetically, one were on each side of the road).

Diverze, it's not about your son. We are going to use sex based language because it's not possible to have coherent conversations about keeping men out of women's spaces while also using language that pretends some men are women.

You calling your son your daughter does contribute to the problem because it contributes to the language obfuscation. Good for him if he personally is not using that obfuscation to say he should be in women's changing rooms and sports, but that doesn't stop the deceptive language being harmful because plenty of others are using it that way.

It's easy and clear to say this man should stay out of women's spaces because he's a man. It's confusing and unclear to say this woman should stay out of women's spaces because she's trans. He's a man, and it's not because he's trans he should stay out it's because he's a man. Or in OP's case, is statistically speaking a higher risk.

(Obviously those of us who know particular men well have our own views about their risk levels as an individual. And sometimes we will be right. Sometimes we will think they're harmless and be wrong too, how many rapists have mums who thought they wouldn't hurt a fly right up until the point they did?)

No. You came on here referring to your son (who isn't here) as your 'daughter' and as 'she'. This is how this ideology got into schools in the first place. It is not a kindness. It is a lie.

'I think teaching young people that a few people identify as the opposite sex, that this is pretty rare, and those people deserve the same respect as others and should not be vilified or mocked is okay'

No. I don't agree. Gender non-conforming, fine. But this kind of thinking buys into gender ideology. 'identifying as the opposite sex' is meaningless and just perpetuates gender stereotypes.

Yes, society has taught your young person they are trans. No, of course you shouldn't reject them. But pretending on here and muddying language is part of the social issue that caused your son's thinking in the first place.

The trans community aren't all the same, but unfortunately for them and us it's the loud, nasty ones who get the most attention and who drive their demands with no hint of reason. The TRA won't accept trans spaces, they've had a taste of running roughshod over natal women by being everywhere only natal women should be and now they're furious at the suggestion they'll lose all that.
I used to be kinder about trans issues but watching actual women hounded, cancelled, threathened and assualted has changed that, what's worse is seeing the police and the NHS turn a blind eye.

So you are saying that once someone believes gender identity is real and think it applies to them because that is what they have been taught in school, it is pointless trying to dissuade them of their belief because it makes them happy?

No. I came on here referring to my trans daughter. I never refer to her as my daughter.

Yes to all that, but does it not concern you that you are validating a self concept that has no roots in reality - by enabling the idea that your child is female and your 'daughter'?

Life is short, calm down, live and let live and try to find some joy along the way

Life is, in fact, going to calm up.

It is like saying that if the proportion of voters for party x in London is y% and then assuming the proportion of voters for x is going to be the same in some small village.

We can look at the number of sex offenders as a proportion of the prison population. Or we can look at the number as a proportion of the national population. Even using the most generous estimates of the number of transwomen in the UK the proportion of convicted sex offenders is high compared to men and off the scale high compared to women. The numbers are very solid and they have been consistent in different countries that collect data at all.

If you want to get out of the prison data issue, your only option really is to say that those are men lying about being trans. But that does not help your case, because if malicious men are willing to go through all the hoops of consistently lying to prison guards, of /course/ they're going to be willing to lie by walking into women's changing rooms if permitted to do so. Of /course/ giving them permission to do so, and therefore removing women's right to raise the alarm and ask for them to be removed, is a danger to women.

Does the rest of your extended family go along with this as well?

I do agree the prison stats are often misused but that is why the census was so helpful. The census quite clearly showed men who identified as women are several times more likely that other men to be sex offenders (who themselves are 50 times more likely to be sex offenders than women)

I don't think that's my role as the parent of an adult who has free will. Particularly when I spent the teen years doing just that with the result of severe depression that lasted years.

I have and do ensured that she understands she is trans. Not a woman, a trans woman. Not my daughter, my trans daughter. These are the lines I hold. You were a boy. You did exist as Harry. You are now Helen and I still love you, and I will keep up the pictures of Harry who is who you used to be. As Helen you are a valid and loved human but you do not have the right to enter women's intimate spaces (and nor would she want to).

But you think he has the right to appropriate female language?

Undomesticated equines couldn't make me

I assume you mean pronouns as I don't know what "female language" is.

I already said Helen never asked us to use she/her pronouns actually. We do it naturally when using her name. When thinking about her I do get muddled and thinking about childhood often revert to he.

As I said, I have the right to use the pronouns I want to speak of my trans daughter. You may not police that on my behalf.

Well, for an example, Amnesty are pretty good about campaigning for single sex toilets in India because not having any, or having mixed sex toilets in India is very dangerous for women in India. We know that because Amnesty have done studies and therefore campaign for toilets for women in India.

In the "global North" or whatever you like to call where we live Amnesty are very keen that we share them with men.

Diverze, I think I see where you are coming from, which I acknowledge is a place that I have no personal experience of; I agree with some of what you say but not with all of it. I think that's as far as you and I are going to get, and I think that's OK, so I'm leaving it at that, with good wishes for you and your child

Using the word daughter even with a trans in front is part of the lie. Using the word she is part of the lie. All the tussles about whether there should be a space in "trans women" or not, about whether sea horses are horses or not, about whether trans is being used as an adjective or a modifier - that word women there is being used as a crowbar. It's not harmless politeness when it's being weaponised against us.

You choose to lie to your son. This here is not you in your house talking to your son, it's a discussion board about women's rights, women's needs, and women's spaces. Not participating in sleight of hand lies about what sex people are is increasingly preferred here.

Men are 50% of the population, commit 80% of violent crime and 99% of all sex crime.

Well, you go ahead and prefer it then, knock yourself out.

Posters here have free will. If I can't police you calling my trans daughter my son, and using 'he' pronouns, then it is true the other way too. I can call her she if I want to. I could also claim to own 25 racehorses and be the world champion at ballroom dancing. People lie online all the time. You have no way of policing that.

I do understand the limitations of the data rather well. I have spent a lot of time going over the difference data sets from the UK and from other countries.

Can you explain to me please what new data is going to dramatically change the point, or to disprove the point, that I am making.

This group of male people for risk assessment, do not show a pattern of sexual offending equal to or lower than female people.

You already agree with Flirts' logic who pointed out that we need to make the point about appropriate comparators, which is what I pointed out on page one in the post before the one you quoted. We need to stop referring to male people as being a relevant comparator for safeguarding risk assessment and many of us have been making this point for years now.

Would you like to splice the data another way or for me to? I have already done this on other threads previously. The thing is, those % also get rejected by some people who wish to dismiss that 'This group of male people for risk assessment, do not show a pattern of sexual offending equal to or lower than female people.' What population base would you recommend we use for UK male people with transgender identities?

The prisoner statistics are what we have. It is not perfect, yet the logic holds. If you would like to present alternative data sets that assure women that this group of male people for risk assessment, have a pattern of sexual offending equal to or lower than female people, please link it up. I have been searching for that data for a few years now and I would welcome seeing it.

i'm happily surprised at the number of pp who got that reference 😀

Daughter is a female descriptor and I don't believe that adding the adjective 'trans' to it makes it not a female descriptor.

You have also made reference that you don't like people referring to your child as 'he'. Yet to refer to him in any other way is not accurate for these discussions.

Speaking for the more local northern part of the planet, in the UK there are more reports of sexual assault in mixed sex changing rooms than in single sex changing rooms.

We also know that men are far more likely to commit crimes like indecent exposure and voyeurism, but the Wii Spa case in California shows that it is very difficult to claim that such a crime has been committed if a man has a right to use a space, and that in these circumstances nobody really cares if the man is or isn't trans.

Diverze, you were accusing a poster of not trying to look for solutions because they called you on the lie. I'm trying to explain that truthful language is important to seeking solutions. Particularly in this field where there have been many attempts to manipulate the deceptive language to leverage women's rights away.

You are, as you point out, free to call your son what you want.

I hope you have made it clear that others are under no compulsion to refer to him as a woman (either directly, via pronouns, via descriptors).

They have very valid reasons not to wish to lie to him on this topic.