Transgender hate on mum's net

[Steph2002]

I'm just wondering, I see so much hate on here about transgender woman and not a lot about transgender men. Does everyone on mum's net hate Transgender women and if so why? I don't mind sharing a toilet space with a transgender woman in fact my best friend is a transgender woman and she is the nicest person you could ever wish to meet and will protect any woman no matter where they are. I would hate to be sharing a toilet with a hairy masculine transgender man, which seems the way people want to go why? Am I the only person on here that supports trans gender women, if so I need to leave. How many people that hate Transgender women have actually met one and had issues with one I'd love to know.

Great, receipts please because the MOJ and ONS figures quoted earlier in this thread say otherwise.

Where is the proof for this 'most vulnerable' horse shit?

There is no such thing as a “cis-man”. A man does not become a woman just by saying he is one. A man can never be a woman. And men who identify as women are not different to other men in any sense, least of all in their male pattern crime.

They are just as dangerous as other men. In terms of sexual offences MOJ data suggests they are more dangerous than other men. The proportion of trans identified men in prison for sexual offences per capita is higher than non trans identified men.

Data from the Ministry of Justice UK shows that trans women are significantly more likely to be convicted of a violent sexual offence than those you term “cis” men

Anyone who can read Taztoy and Jimmy's posts and still think letting men into spaces where women are vulnerable is beneath contempt. I am genuinely shocked that people, especially other women, can double down on that.

As pp said, this thread and a few others are like stepping through a portal into 2017.

I also worry that there will be some men who thoroughly enjoyed reading those posts.

Are you saying there are actual studies that look specifically at differences in offending between transwomen and other men? Can you provide a reference for these, please/

I’m sorry for what you’ve been through. You can, of course, have group therapy free from men & have a female doctor.

You should also be able to use a public restroom without people forcing you to prove you are a woman. Nonesense hysteria about trans women, makes us all unsafe. Just let people pee in privacy with dignity.

What about dads in an open plan changing room? I have a local leisure centre which has open plan changing rooms with about 2 cubicles. Most people just used the open plan changing room as often it was children’s swimming lessons and the odd person getting changed. I walked out of the pool with my child and there was a dad in there getting his daughter changed. I was so angry. He had no right to be in there with women and children getting changed. His argument was he couldn’t go in the men’s with her but what happens was all the women were forced to queue for the cubicles. All our behaviours had to change to accommodate him.

"Men who want to enter a woman’s bathroom to rape, just walk on in… in coats, trousers, in whatever clothes they want. Anyone claiming they don’t want transgender woman in women’s toillets due to threat of rape are very, very silly people."

There is so much going on in this paragraph but it nothing in it is new.

"Men who want to enter a woman’s bathroom to rape, just walk on in… in coats, trousers, in whatever clothes they want."

Yes. We know. That does not mean that a male person with a transgender identity also may not rape a female person in the female toilet though. Your point is actually irrelevant, because just because a male person can do this anyway is no reason to allow a sub group of male people who could also do the same thing into that single sex provision.

There are a few issues with that.

Yes. Any male person can walk in. No Shit Sherlock. However, if they walk in they are hopefully going to be noticed and security called, female people can walk out without any mental confusion, female people can alert other users. There is a very clear violation of boundaries.

A male person with a transgender identity may be less noticeable as being somewhere they should not be to passers by for a start. Once in that toilet they can claim to be legitimately in there because they are a 'woman'. Some female people have now be conditioned to remain silent and to not raise alarms, to not call security and to not even leave the toilet when a male person with a transgender identity has entered. There have been signs up in UK female toilets telling female people to simply accept there presence or else they are the problem, not the boundary violating male person.

When you shame or condition female people of any age to ignore their instinctive response, you are leaving those female people open to harm. It is counter to safeguarding principles. It removes the automatic reaction that may prevent harm.

So, this - "Anyone claiming they don’t want transgender woman in women’s toillets due to threat of rape are very, very silly people." is actually fucking harmful misinformation. No. Women and girls claiming this are not fucking very very silly people.

But, I think it could be said that the person shaming women for their legitimate concerns probably are.

Why can't men identifying as women use a cubicle in the mens and pee in privacy there?

Just bumping this again. There are those who think, well this happened, but what are the chances of it happening again? The point is that safeguarding assumes the worst possible scenario and protects people from it. Allowing a man into the toilets because he has a female gender identity was a massive safeguarding fail that resulted in JimmyNeutronsForehead suffering a horrendous trauma at a time when was at her most vulnerable. Her protected characteristics - being a woman, and being a pregnant woman - were disregarded in favour of a man who used her for his sexual gratification. Really think about that.

Men who want to enter a woman’s bathroom to rape, just walk on in… in coats, trousers, in whatever clothes they want. Anyone claiming they don’t want transgender woman in women’s toillets due to threat of rape are very, very silly people.
If you allow transwoman in it makes it impossible to challenge other men.

Gender Identity Disparities in Criminal Victimization: National Crime Victimization Survey, 2017–2018 - PMC

PS - Google is free

So why have women been called transphobic bigots for wanting female only group therapy. In Brighton there are no female only rape therapy services - I am Sarah fought a legal case to try and force female only spaces to be provided and they still haven't been provided. JK Rowling has been called transphobic for setting up a female only therapy organisation.

In the Sandi Peggie Tribunal the male Dr Upton said he would still treat a woman who had specifically asked for a female doctor because he was "a biological female"

This was a question answered in Parliament in 23 December 2024:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

Just a note on this:

Regarding the % of male prisoners in UK with transgender identities. The mentioned above for the year ending 31 March 2024 had the figure that 151 of the 243 male prisoners in the UK prisons had at least one sex offence on their record.

The ratio changed from 43.3% (88/203) having at least one sex offence to their name at 31 March 2023 to 151/243 to 62.1% as at 31 March 2024.

The increase of the overall number of male prisoners with transgender identities in the UK prisons between 2023 and 2024 was only 42 yet the increase in the sex offenders was 63.

In 2019, there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders. I haven’t looked up the stats since. But I wouldn’t expect this will be different. Last time I looked at the raw stats for female sex offences, they had remained stable numbers for a decade or more despite population growth.

For male people with transgender identities to have the same rate of committing sex offences, there would be 8 (3.3% of 243) prisoners with trans identities in the UK prison population with sex offences.

8
Not 151.

And if someone tries to suggest that the majority of these male prisoners have declared that they are women to gain access to the female prisons, I doubt this is true.

Considering the sex crime numbers for that prison population jumped from 88 to 151 male prisoners with a sex offence that declared they were women in a year (31 March 2024 to 31 March 2024) AFTER the publishing of the guidance in early February 2023, I seriously doubt these new prisoners are making declarations for the benefit of getting into the female prison.

How do you explain the prison figures then?

Here is data from the MoJ - Can you please let us know what other 'studies' we need to show that male people with transgender identities do not have the same or lower pattern of committing sex offences as female people?

Because, we have the stats of actual convictions. What more is needed?

Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.

There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female.

What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.
And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.
I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other
The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime, at ANY STAGE OF TRANSITION.

We do. And for the police to not accept the claim that the man is in there cos “he’s a woman”. No males in female spaces will sort that right out. I’m so glad you agree.

I don't hate trans people, I just don't want a small subset of males to be given special dispensation to enter female spaces because of how they (claim to) feel.

It's really that simple.

No-one should have to prove their sex to access female only loos and changing rooms. All males, regardless of their gender identity, should just stay out of female only provision. Transwomen know they are male - it’s a prerequisite to being a transwomen. Since the SC ruling, they know that provision labelled ‘women’ or ‘female’ is not for them.

That is not about offending rates. Have you read what you have googled?

What I am saying is: Allowing random people to police the bathroom, based on how feminine someone looks, is dangerous. I don't want you to police the bathroom and ask about my genitalia if I wear no makeup and trousers one day. Even woman, born as woman, can be guessed as the wrong gender.

Allowing random people to act as police is very dangerous.

Of course (use your common sense) if anyone (male or female) is behaving odd or threatening in a public loo call the police and if you think it's safe, step in.

How do you define not looking feminine enough ?

Just, I've spent more than 40 years with short hair, either no makeup or barely visible makeup, jeans or work trousers, flat shoes and boots, donkey jackets and waterproofs, and no-one has ever looked crossways at me (except one very small child in a queue in the outdoor dark in November 1987 whose embarrassed father immediately said to stop being silly, of course I was a 'lady').

I'm at the tall end of average for a woman. I have never attracted a challenge or heard of another woman being challenged.

A woman colleague being attacked in the loo, yes; a male colleague talking enthusiastically about recording women in the loos, yes; young women I knew having to appear in court describing how a male colleague had installed recording devices in the loos and changing rooms, yes.

I suspect your 'more common problem' is not a problem at all, just yet another convenient male fantasy.