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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

797 replies

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

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TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:51

He'll be back.
He won't be able to stop himself.

Shedmistress · 09/04/2026 18:51

It's a logical position considering that transitioning is medically effective for certain people and not 'pretending men are women' ruins the whole point of the transition

Not one person has ever changed sex.

popery · 09/04/2026 18:52

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:24

No frame is inherently that of a male or that of female. However, on average, there are differences between males' frames and females' frames. A frame that is more typical of males' frames is a masculine frame and a frame that is more typical of females' frames is a feminine frame.

It's possible for a male to have a feminine frame. It's possible for a female to have a masculine frame.

Given that I believe gender is defined by what society determines your sex to be, and given that sex determinations can include multiple traits, it is also true that it is perfectly possible for a man to have a feminine frame.

I'm aware that this seems like delving into minutiae, but these little picture differences relate to my bigger picture opinions re. gender.

Ah OK, so - delving into the minutiae! -
when you said
There are not frames that are male and frames that are female.

You meant "No specific individual frame is inherently that of a male or that of female." - agreed.

Then when you said "a frame that more resembles that of a female" you meant ' a frame that resembles that of some average of all females' .

You seem to slide between saying 'a female' to mean 'one specific individual female' (as in your first statement) and then 'a female' to mean 'some average of all females' in your following sentence.

It's this muddling between the two that I think is causing confusion both in me trying to parse your arguments, and possibly in your train of logic.

You can't apply averages of sex classes to individuals and expect a coherent result.

If we look at body parts, the average human has one breast and one testicle, yet if we used that to try and determine which creatures on the planet were human or not, we'd be extremely confused.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 18:53

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:48

I'm going to stop replying to people now. (It's not because you made a really good point that I just want to avoid having to respond to. I haven't ignored any good points on purpose.) I think the usefulness of this for me has decreased as the number of people accusing me of being sexist and/or patronising has increased!

Thank you if you did respond though; I very much enjoyed hearing a perspective that is often hidden in the media and whatnot.

Edited

I think you're giving up because your arguments are becoming ever more circular and you're struggling to defend them. Hopefully you will have learnt something, and your perspective will mature as you get older.

TakeTheCuntingQuichePatricia · 09/04/2026 18:54

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:41

Except the point is that you don't determine the weather using chicken bones. No one does. Yet society does determine sex using gendered stereotypes. Perhaps it shouldn't, but I'm not making a normative statement; it's a descriptive one.

You've got it the wrong way round. Society (not all of) generally attach gendered stereotypes to someone based on their sex. Not the other way around.
What GC people want to do, AFAIK, is stop those gendered stereotypes. So boys can like pink, unicorns, ballet etc. Girls can like trucks and dinosaurs.

And I don't understand your obsession with height. My dad is 5ft 3 if he stands up very straight. No one has ever thought he was a woman. Ever.

EmpressaurusKitty · 09/04/2026 18:54

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:43

Except the point is that you don't determine the weather using chicken bones. No one does

I do. Everyone in my part of Argyll (and Bute) does.

The only reason I’m doubtful about this is that I think your cats would run away with the bones before you’d finished the forecast, @TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne.

Taztoy · 09/04/2026 19:06

I don’t care what gender anyone decides they are.

gender is a load of nonsense that changes over time.

I care what sex they are.

and that they obey the law.

Heggettypeg · 09/04/2026 19:11

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:14

The term gender-affirming care is now used widely, especially in America. It could describe a range of things, including my hair care. Women are widely using this term when discussing their care.
i believe this shows how pervasive stereotypes still are in this country and how much of an impact the have on the world around you even if you pretend to be immune to it.
who needs Orwell when we have you picking apart peoples thoughts

Well, in over 60 years of life in the UK, I can honestly say that I have never heard any woman refer to going to the hairdresser or getting a manicure (or anything else of that sort) as "gender-affirming care". I've heard "beauty treatment" and "pampering" (the latter mostly in relation to those spa weekend thingies, which are regarded as a real indulgence.) So perhaps "gender- affirming care" is a modern American term which hasn't thoroughly penetrated here.

It seems an odd idea that anyone who actually is a woman would need to "affirm" this by having her nails done, as if her woman-ness is something that could slip away from her, rather than something she is stuck with whether she likes it or not. Though I can see that a man who identified as a woman might feel that need.

onepostwonder · 09/04/2026 19:21

Heggettypeg · 09/04/2026 19:11

Well, in over 60 years of life in the UK, I can honestly say that I have never heard any woman refer to going to the hairdresser or getting a manicure (or anything else of that sort) as "gender-affirming care". I've heard "beauty treatment" and "pampering" (the latter mostly in relation to those spa weekend thingies, which are regarded as a real indulgence.) So perhaps "gender- affirming care" is a modern American term which hasn't thoroughly penetrated here.

It seems an odd idea that anyone who actually is a woman would need to "affirm" this by having her nails done, as if her woman-ness is something that could slip away from her, rather than something she is stuck with whether she likes it or not. Though I can see that a man who identified as a woman might feel that need.

Agreed. You could be right about America, though. There are gendery people in America who group the rash of conservative women who all seemingly share the same horrible facial surgeon and filler technicians in and/or around Washington DC to be seeking gender affirming care.

TakeTheCuntingQuichePatricia · 09/04/2026 19:26

I know a TRA who told me that when i shave my legs its "gender affirming." I pointed out that my son shaves his more often that i do. Apparently his hair removal isn't gender affirming, but mine is. They couldn't explain why.

HoppityBun · 09/04/2026 19:28

TakeTheCuntingQuichePatricia · 09/04/2026 19:26

I know a TRA who told me that when i shave my legs its "gender affirming." I pointed out that my son shaves his more often that i do. Apparently his hair removal isn't gender affirming, but mine is. They couldn't explain why.

All male cyclists are men, then 🤷‍♀️

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 19:29

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 16:54

My bad, when I said 'you've confused someone's gender', I was referring to sex. (I will admit, informally, the two terms are interchangeable.)

You're right than men are likely worse, but also there's the survivorship bias: even if you are sure, you cannot be certain because the implication from a trans-identifying person 'passing' is that it cannot be noticed.

It's pretty convincing when all the later evidence confirms what one perceived in the first place, every single time.

Wearenotborg · 09/04/2026 19:30

mattala · 09/04/2026 16:28

I know and then we slap a gender label on them like metrosexual or agender or non-binary, wonder why?

Do you? Why? I don’t abd I don’t know anyone else who does? Maybe stop doing that then. It’s not very nice of you.

Heggettypeg · 09/04/2026 19:30

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:04

By 'treats you as a man', I mean that society would place upon you (as a hypothetical trans man i.e. trans-identifying female) the roles, expectations, and norms that are associated with males. For example, those in your small town might expect you to be tall. They might find it funny if you are short, or think that means you are weak. Those in your workplace might ask you to lift heavy boxes etc. because they expect you to be strong.

When I defined gender previously, I explicitly said it was based on society's determination of your sex. One person's determination, however, accurate, is not representative of society's. That person telling other people their determination is not the same thing as other people coming to that conclusion on their own.

If society didn't determine you to be male, if you didn't pass, then you wouldn't be a man, regardless of whether people pretend to have determined you as male and thus treat you as a man or not. You would not be a man if people were just 'being kind'.

However, trans-identifying people aim to be seen as the opposite sex; their supposed transition is towards that purpose. Some people treating you as a man even if they know you are female helps society to no longer determine you as female; it helps you to pass. If everyone you encounter treated you as a man despite you not being a man initially, then you being a man later - being seen as male - would be more likely.

You're right that it leads to seeing people who might not toe the line as a threat to your successful passing, but I don't think there's ever a reality where someone could transition and that wouldn't be the case. Essentially, what you've realised has nothing to do with my definition of sex, gender, or anything but what trans-identifying people actually experience.

So the trans ideal is that we all believe the lie, and if we don't believe it we must be kind and convincingly pretend to believe it, so as not to disturb the illusions of the believers and hopefully to create yet more believers, with the ultimate aim of burying the lie so deep that nobody knows it's a lie any more. The trouble is, like in the "Emperor's New Clothes", there will always be the ones who sees it like it is and will tell it like it is, unless they are suppressed to maintain the lie. Sounds pretty Orwellian to me.

HoppityBun · 09/04/2026 19:37

onepostwonder · 09/04/2026 19:21

Agreed. You could be right about America, though. There are gendery people in America who group the rash of conservative women who all seemingly share the same horrible facial surgeon and filler technicians in and/or around Washington DC to be seeking gender affirming care.

I disagree but I think others will think that I’m wrong. My observations, particularly from observing and listening to work colleagues, is that there’s a sort of performative aspect to some dyeing hair and getting nails done. Women really do say that they feel more feminine for what is essentially getting bits of coloured plastic stuck on their nails. These activities are a form of signifier but whether it’s of sex or gender I’m not clear.

Men do of course go to nail bars but they’re a minority and the ones I’ve come across were straight as far as I knew. One summer, I did once see a man who I know in a professional capacity who had highly decorated toenails but I didn’t know him well enough to understand what was going on there.

TakeTheCuntingQuichePatricia · 09/04/2026 19:39

HoppityBun · 09/04/2026 19:28

All male cyclists are men, then 🤷‍♀️

Of course male cyclists are men. Confused

ScrollingLeaves · 09/04/2026 19:41

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

progressive circles
herd-think pseudo intellectual circles

Waitingfordoggo · 09/04/2026 19:49

I don’t see nail polishing, hair dyeing, leg-shaving etc as ‘gender affirming care’ at all- the people who do them aren’t doing them in order to ‘pass’ as something they aren’t (whereas hormonal and surgical treatments for trans people are seemingly all about trying to make them look like the opposite sex).

I see beauty treatments as attempts to conform to gender stereotypes. That’s not to say that everyone who does those things are doing them unwillingly- many women (and plenty of men) seem to really enjoy beauty treatments and see them as ‘self care’. But there are still plenty of people- mostly women- who think they ‘can’t’ leave the house without make up on, or can’t be seen in a swimsuit with hairy legs. They don’t love the expense, hassle or time spent on all that stuff, but they are worried about being judged. It isn’t about expressing their gender, it’s about fitting in and not being insulted.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 19:51

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:15

I used the information that I was told to use; outside of that hypothetical I understood spannasaurus is almost certainly female. You're right that a determination based on that information has a large amount of uncertainty and it doesn't prove anything, but that doesn't change the fact that a determination can be made on it, and determinations are constantly made on that sort of information - maybe less so by feminists, but still by women and certainly by men. You're right - we all have unique personalities with masculine and feminine elements. I'm not denying that the very concepts of masculinity and femininity rely on stereotypes. I'm arguing that these stereotypes are still used to determine sex.

Gender is generally not useful for determining sex when considered solely in terms of these stereotypes. However, we have also been discussing masculine and feminine physical traits - also elements of gender. In combination with these, which reflects patterns by sex but are not one-to-one linked with sex (a male can have a feminine gait and a female can have masculine shoulders), sex is determined fairly accurately.

I might have misunderstood you in my last paragraph. You actually said that gender is not a useful way of categorising. I disagree with that because gender describes the societal treatment of people based on what society thinks their sex is. In other words, saying 'females experience misogyny' is a simplification because some females 'pass' as men and don't experience misogyny (sexism directed towards people society assumes are female - women). 'Women experience misogyny' is an accurate statement.

In terms of law, nearly all regulations should be based on sex; I don't disagree there.

Saying spannasaurus is non-binary doesn't really mean anything. I've never seen a compelling definition of non-binary as a consequence of genuine gender dysphoria. Non-binary also isn't a gender even in the gender-affirming view; it's an umbrella term for anything not 'man' or 'woman'. It doesn't connect to any sex and is irrelevant when it comes to determining sex.

No, physical traits are not elements of gender, unless you are using gender as a euphemism for sex. But I don't think you are; the vast majority of times in this thread you have used gender to mean stereotypes. There has been some confusion because you think typical (or common) physical characteristics that are sex related are gender characteristics – but that is a different use of 'gender' from behavioural stereotypes.

Feminists don't, as far as I have seen, object to the physical differences between women and men being pointed out; they know those very well from their own experiences, especially after puberty and after childbirth. It is the behavioural expectations that they object to, the idea that women must be dainty, quiet, submissive, pretty, clean etc., while men are permitted to be rough, loud, aggressive, ugly, filthy (from good honest sweat-of-the-brow labour, of course). Women have often done a hard day's manual work and expected to be fresh as a daisy. What are little girls made of: sugar and spice and all things nice, not frogs and snails and puppy dogs' tails. Utter nonsense, in other words.

Scout2016 · 09/04/2026 19:51

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:41

Eating disorders aren't solely neurological. They aren't permanent either, and they don't necessarily result in dysphoria, although they can

Oh my. Are you an expert on EDs as well?

Amazing that there's no end to the wisdom of this (checks notes) youngster who could be my great-grandson.

So far we have been told about
Neurological disorders
Eating disorders
Religion and faith and what sort of faith is /isn't valid
Mental health
What terminology we should use about ourselves
What terminology we should find offensive
Some convoluted and contradictory stuff about gender and society
Questionable stuff about gender dysphoria and brains
More contradictory stuff about sex and what is OK (wrong sex pronouns) not ok (men in sport)
what makes a man / women (??? None the wiser really what definitions we are allowed to use)
That we care more about TiMs than TiFs...
I'm sure there's more

I am curious what he's going to be doing at uni but scared to ask in case it's something like medicine.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 20:09

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:38

Yes, I am asking you to 'collude in their delusion'. I think that is helpful for individuals with true gender dysphoria. 'Colluding', as you so eloquently put it, does not mean allowing males into female spaces, allowing males into female sports, etc. The gender-affirming movement may want that, not me. For me, it primarily means using a new name and using different pronouns.

Must I collude in the delusion of someone if my observation of them throughout their life doesn't lead me to the conclusion that they have 'true' gender dysphoria? Do I have to call my son 'she'? I have seen nothing to suggest any neurological as opposed to psychological condition, nor any sign of gender confusion in childhood. So do I tell him that I won't use female pronouns for him until he can show me a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria? But I don't trust the medical profession on this; some of them are prepared to invert penises or make imitations of them from arm or thigh. At what point do I start 'treating him as a woman'? And does everyone else who comes across him have to do the same? My view is that 'preferred pronouns' are a trojan horse to get everyone to come round to the view that TWAW and TMAM, and to make it difficult to argue reality. Just be kind and refer to her as she would like, and then he will be able to say that everyone has to see him as a woman.

alliumursinum · 09/04/2026 20:31

Christ Almighty, has our gap year lad seen sunlight in the the last 24 hours?

He needs to get outside play some rugby or stay inside and do a pilates class, go get a couple of beers/elderflower cordials, enjoy a lovely meal in a great local bar, consensually shag (if shagging is something he enjoys) a male/female or a man/woman (covering all his definitions) but above all stop being a common or garden mansplaining bore...

EmpressaurusKitty · 09/04/2026 20:37

I think for balance purposes he should go share his views with trans Reddit & see what they say.

RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 20:39

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:17

They do on social media. I’m seeing it more and more

Social media is populated by an enormous number of fuckwits.

It still doesn't mean men can become women or vice versa.

RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 20:42

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:45

It's a logical position considering that transitioning is medically effective for certain people and not 'pretending men are women' ruins the whole point of the transition.

It doesn't necessarily bother me when people don't use correct pronouns on a online forum. I don't think I've said that? I did start using pronouns based on sex in references to my sister when I realised that no one else here would refer to her as a man. I was trying to keep up the delusion, as you might put it, but that's pointless if no one else is.

Even your sister ultimately doesn't believe the delusion. Everyone can see the delusion. The pronouns are just about controlling everyone around them.

They aren't respectful. They aren't kind. They don't help your sister. They don't change your sister.

It's literally bullshit.