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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

797 replies

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

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onepostwonder · 09/04/2026 17:58

RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 15:01

S-o-c-i-a-l c-o-n-t-a-g-i-o-n has a fucking long history in this age group of females.

Truth!

In 1985, I ended up skipping school to go to a Catholic church with a friend who swore she felt possessed and that we both needed to speak with a priest because we had messed around with a guy who identified as a satanist. This despite the fact that she her family was strongly Northern Irish Protestant and her father and older brother would have had extreme feelings about the entire situation.

TakeTheCuntingQuichePatricia · 09/04/2026 18:02

Height and everything you mention are gendered though
Height is not gendered. If it were my 6ft4 TW friend couldn't claim to be "woman gender"

psychological (not genuine). That's not why psychological means.

People who don't identify as trans don't have a gender identity,
why were you earlier insisting we were "cis" then?

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:04

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 17:43

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Those links do not prove what you are claiming. Have you actually read them, read the conclusions and considered the implications fully of what they are saying?

No, they certainly don't.
I looked at all the links posted BTW.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:04

Heggettypeg · 09/04/2026 16:47

So: I am female but identify as a man and I change my appearance so successfully that everyone in my small town and workplace is fooled and "treats me as a man" (what exactly does that entail?). You say that makes me a man.

Then I get a new workmate, who due to a history of sexual abuse is extremely alert to sex differences. She clocks me as a natal woman straight away. Do I cease to be a man then? Or when she says "she" about me to a colleague and they realise too? Or when the whole workforce knows? What's the tipping point?

And do they just have to "treat me" as a man to make me a man, or do they actually have to believe I am one? Would I have been a man if they had never been fooled and had just been "kind"?

Incidentally, this thought experiment has brought home to me just how very destabilising the dependence on affirmation by others of one's "felt" identity must be. Not a healthy way to live and I'm not convinced it is kind to encourage it at all, because it leads to seeing anyone who doesn't (or even might not) toe the line, as a threat.

By 'treats you as a man', I mean that society would place upon you (as a hypothetical trans man i.e. trans-identifying female) the roles, expectations, and norms that are associated with males. For example, those in your small town might expect you to be tall. They might find it funny if you are short, or think that means you are weak. Those in your workplace might ask you to lift heavy boxes etc. because they expect you to be strong.

When I defined gender previously, I explicitly said it was based on society's determination of your sex. One person's determination, however, accurate, is not representative of society's. That person telling other people their determination is not the same thing as other people coming to that conclusion on their own.

If society didn't determine you to be male, if you didn't pass, then you wouldn't be a man, regardless of whether people pretend to have determined you as male and thus treat you as a man or not. You would not be a man if people were just 'being kind'.

However, trans-identifying people aim to be seen as the opposite sex; their supposed transition is towards that purpose. Some people treating you as a man even if they know you are female helps society to no longer determine you as female; it helps you to pass. If everyone you encounter treated you as a man despite you not being a man initially, then you being a man later - being seen as male - would be more likely.

You're right that it leads to seeing people who might not toe the line as a threat to your successful passing, but I don't think there's ever a reality where someone could transition and that wouldn't be the case. Essentially, what you've realised has nothing to do with my definition of sex, gender, or anything but what trans-identifying people actually experience.

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TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:07

Patients would have to be honest (e.g. about their sexual interests, in the case of autogynaephilic adult males)

Because men with AGP always admit they've got it and that their motivations are purely fetishistic.

Not.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:08

Usernamenotfound1 · 09/04/2026 16:47

Adopting stereotypes doesn't make someone male or female, but my argument is that if a male 'passes' as female, then he is a woman; if society applies the stereotypes associated with females to you, then you are a woman. Whether you are a transgender woman or not is based on whether you are actually female or not

I am old enough to remember Boy George’s first appearances on the pop scene.

there was a lot of talk about whether he was male or female. He wore makeup, had long hair and plaits, and clothing was not stereotypically male. Clothing was loose so you couldn’t judge on frame.

i know many people who thought he was a woman. As far as I know Boy George has always been male and not in anyway transgender. Simply a man who didn’t conform to stereotypes.

so are you saying that you would insist Boy George is a woman, as he “passes” as a female?

when my child was small she had short hair and wore trousers and hoodies. She has never identified as anything other than female. Many people insisted she was a boy, does that make her a man?

That there were some people that thought Boy George was female doesn't mean that society saw him that way. Additionally, consider that it's harder to determine someone's sex through a television screen or a photograph than by meeting them in real life.

The same applies to your daughter. However, people's determinations of sex are much less certain for very young children, and gender applies less to them than older children or adults.

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FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:10

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 16:51

@FairHippopotama you described these girls as mismatched. You assert they have a "brain-body mismatch". That there is something about their brain that doesn't "match" their bodies. What on earth does that mean unless you are referring to sexist stereotypes about women and girls. Having traditionally masculine interests, or behaving in a way that is more commonly associated with males is not a "brain-body mismatch". There is nothing about their brains that don't "match". It's a female brain in a female body. Behaving in a way that isn't expected of them because they are female is not a "brain-body mismatch".

I mean they were 'exposed to atypical levels of sex hormones during later stages of fetal development, leading to brain structures atypical of their sex assigned at birth' ('Causes of gender incongruence'). It has nothing to do with gendered stereotypes.

There's likely also other causes of gender dysphoria. I don't know them; there hasn't been enough research.

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mattala · 09/04/2026 18:14

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 17:04

Throughout this thread you have made statements and then when questioned about them you say well its not really my viewpoint. Maybe you could be more clear as to when you are stating what you actually think as opposed to just making statements that you later say are not your view.

The term gender-affirming care is now used widely, especially in America. It could describe a range of things, including my hair care. Women are widely using this term when discussing their care.
i believe this shows how pervasive stereotypes still are in this country and how much of an impact the have on the world around you even if you pretend to be immune to it.
who needs Orwell when we have you picking apart peoples thoughts

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:15

popery · 09/04/2026 16:52

I'm not saying no one knows what sex is anymore; I'm saying that to determine sex, we use gender.

I would disagree with that. If you see a person who is pregnant, I am not assuming their character or personality to determine that they're female.

I don't think height, frame etc are commonly considered 'gender'. You're doing it but I think it's confusing to most of us.

Regardless, I don't really think it's got anything to do with anyone's actual sex or gender identity, so it's getting a bit of a long derail!

But you are using the gendered trait that women are able to get pregnant.

The vast majority of females are able to get pregnant. Therefore women are said to be able to get pregnant. It is a gendered trait (one solely for women). But some females cannot, whether due to infertility issues or physical disorders etc.

Is this a clear explanation? I think that helps show why I believe there is (or should be) a difference between the terms 'gender' and 'sex', between 'woman' and 'female'.

I'm sorry if I've explained it in a confusing way, but that is what I believe, given the definitions of gender and sex I'm using.

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TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:16

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:10

I mean they were 'exposed to atypical levels of sex hormones during later stages of fetal development, leading to brain structures atypical of their sex assigned at birth' ('Causes of gender incongruence'). It has nothing to do with gendered stereotypes.

There's likely also other causes of gender dysphoria. I don't know them; there hasn't been enough research.

Dude, I was a midwife for 45 years and I never once assigned a baby's sex to it.

I did observe the sex, though.

OverTheWater28 · 09/04/2026 18:16

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:14

The term gender-affirming care is now used widely, especially in America. It could describe a range of things, including my hair care. Women are widely using this term when discussing their care.
i believe this shows how pervasive stereotypes still are in this country and how much of an impact the have on the world around you even if you pretend to be immune to it.
who needs Orwell when we have you picking apart peoples thoughts

Women don’t refer to hair care as “gender affirming care”. Are you on glue?

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:17

OverTheWater28 · 09/04/2026 18:16

Women don’t refer to hair care as “gender affirming care”. Are you on glue?

They do on social media. I’m seeing it more and more

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 18:17

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:10

I mean they were 'exposed to atypical levels of sex hormones during later stages of fetal development, leading to brain structures atypical of their sex assigned at birth' ('Causes of gender incongruence'). It has nothing to do with gendered stereotypes.

There's likely also other causes of gender dysphoria. I don't know them; there hasn't been enough research.

Christ could you be any more patronising. I know what you were referring to. It doesn’t mean that they have some kind of “brain-body mismatch” because their brains are female in a female body. All it tells you is that there is plenty of variety in how female brains develop and sometimes that can be affected by prenatal hormone exposure.

Livpool · 09/04/2026 18:17

No -I just ‘am’. I don’t think most people have time to do this level is navel gazing

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 18:19

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:50

(Meant to say this in my last reply, apologies)

As I've said, feminists are the ones who developed the concept of gender. Perhaps it is no longer feminists who hold up male and female as sexes and man and woman as genders, but given gender in my purview still accurately describes societal treatment if not 'biological reality', I disagree that my meaning 'renders the words utterly meaningless'.

The position of a gender abolitionist is consistent with the idea that men don't have to be masculine and women don't have to be feminine. It's not mutually exclusive with the concept that men are those who are perceived as males and women are those who are perceived as females.

I don't think we should recognise gender identity, at least as the gender-affirming movement describe it. People who don't identify as trans don't have a gender identity, yet gender-affirming people argue that we all have a gender identity, so I disagree with them on that.

Recognising gender as real means recognising that these gendered stereotypes still exist. The way that they exist, what exactly is defined as masculine or feminine differs across cultures, but the fact that a masculinity and a femininity exist is essentially constant and universal, as far as I'm aware.

It's not asking people to accept that stereotypes makes you a man or woman; I'm asking people to accept that which set of stereotypes society applies to you makes you a man or a woman. I am under the impression that is consistent with descriptions of womanhood as necessarily coloured by misogyny etc. Wanting people to stop believing those stereotypes is not mutually exclusive to admitting they still exist.

We use biological patterns in certain traits to determine sex. But these patterns are not neatly split along male and female lines. Other users have brought up hip width and the effect of that on gait; I have already shown or explained that there is a wide distribution in the human population for this. While wider hips are feminine, they are not necessarily female. A female compared to a male doesn't always have wider hips.

I am contending that a male can be perceived as a woman, i.e. that trans people are able to pass. Even if you don't consciously determine someone's sex, you almost certainly do it subconsciously.

The idea that people can "pass" as the opposite sex seems fairly central to your argument.

However, I think the proportion of trans people who are not very obviously trans is vanishingly small to the extent that it's negligible. I used to work in an advisory capacity with members of the public. They had to complete a form with demographic information for our equality monitoring prior to the meeting. I wouldn't look at it until after the meeting in order to enter the data onto our database. Clients were asked to identify if their "gender identity" was different from their sex at birth. There wasn't a single trans client who wasn't obviously and identifiably trans, and where I hadn't already worked this out long before looking at the form.

So no, I don't really accept the argument that transwomen experience misogyny, nor indeed that transmen can be immune from it, because I don't believe that anyone genuinely thinks that trans women are women or that trans men are men. I do accept that transwomen and trans men are both likely to experience transphobia, but that is a separate issue altogether.

I don't really know why you keep going on about height and hip width. Even if a man happens to be short and have wider hips than the average man, it is very unlikely that there won't be other biological markers which will clearly identify him as a man to anyone.

I strongly disagree with your assertion that recognising gender as real means recognising that gendered stereotypes still exist. What recognising gender as real actually means is that you are validating and reinforcing those stereotypes because gender can only be real if you accept the validity of the stereotypes. If you reject the stereotypes, as I do, then the entire concept of gender falls apart.

Waitwhat23 · 09/04/2026 18:20

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 18:17

Christ could you be any more patronising. I know what you were referring to. It doesn’t mean that they have some kind of “brain-body mismatch” because their brains are female in a female body. All it tells you is that there is plenty of variety in how female brains develop and sometimes that can be affected by prenatal hormone exposure.

Given his consequent post regarding pregnancy, I think the answer to 'Christ could you be any more patronising' is yes. Yes, he can.

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 18:23

@Waitwhat23 yes, I read that post immediately after I’d posted mine and realised he’d inadvertently answered that question! This chap must think we were all born yesterday, like him. As if we’d never heard or considered the crappy debating point he put forward.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 18:24

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 15:45

I don't think that's what I mean. I don't really understand what you mean!

There are definitely traits which more males have than females. The patterns in these traits forms part of gender. For example, males are taller on average than females. Therefore, men are expected to be relatively tall and women are expected to be relatively short.

When you see someone, you use this gendered pattern to help determine their sex. Whether someone is taller or shorter is one factor that goes into that determination.

Society perpetuates these patterns, but they're true, so there's nothing wrong with that. Society also perpetuates oversimplified stereotypes like men like military history and women don't. This isn't fair to assert, so there is something wrong with it.

I'm not saying no one knows what sex is anymore; I'm saying that to determine sex, we use gender.

I profoundly disagree.

There are definitely traits which more males have than females. Yes.

The patterns in these traits forms part of gender. I think you are confusing physical characteristics bring sex-influenced with people's perception of those characteristics, which you see as definitional. Gender, as used by feminists for the social constructs that are sex stereotypes, refers to behavioural expectations, not to physical characteristics.

So facial or body hair is not a matter of gender, except when it is grown or shaved in order to fit in with behavioural expectations. Hairstyles are a great example of how it is not the hair which is gendered; it is the fashion which may or may not be gendered. I grew up at a time when long hair for men was the height of fashion in the UK, and short hair for women was not unusual. Imagine how confusing that would be in a gender-based culture, but it didn't prevent any of us from easily identifying those we would have liked to date (or should I say "court"!). I also saw that different cultures at that time had opposite expectations regarding underarm hair for women. Underarm hair was not gendered, it depended on what country you lived in. When I was abroad, I didn't think all those women were men, despite around 99% of UK women shaving it off.

And I have had no difficulty in spotting that short men are men.

Because we are human and humans are fallible, we are all capable of mixing up concepts. It's particularly easy to do with 'gender' because the word is used as

  • a euphemism for sex, male or female (and often in terms such as gender stereotypes or gender neutral or gender roles, which are based on the sex binary)
  • the linguistic categories feminine, masculine, neuter
  • the social construct of societal expectations based on sex

So I think you haven't yet decided what you mean by gender, or perhaps you have a broad definition which isn't sufficiently well defined to be of much use in clarifying your meaning.

TRAs seem to me to be particularly prone to use whichever definition suits their purpose each time they use it, happily switching from one definition to another (in the hope that no-one will notice).

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:24

popery · 09/04/2026 16:59

I think you keep doing this sort of logic, OP, which is where the muddling is coming in.

Stating there aren't male and female frames, and simultaneously stating that it's possible to have a frame that resembles a female frame. Which you've already stated doesn't exist.

No frame is inherently that of a male or that of female. However, on average, there are differences between males' frames and females' frames. A frame that is more typical of males' frames is a masculine frame and a frame that is more typical of females' frames is a feminine frame.

It's possible for a male to have a feminine frame. It's possible for a female to have a masculine frame.

Given that I believe gender is defined by what society determines your sex to be, and given that sex determinations can include multiple traits, it is also true that it is perfectly possible for a man to have a feminine frame.

I'm aware that this seems like delving into minutiae, but these little picture differences relate to my bigger picture opinions re. gender.

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FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:26

OttersOnAPlane · 09/04/2026 17:06

The OP when answering a woman who says women are better at correctly identifying sex than men - demands proof...

do you have any data on women identifying people's sexes and men being 'rubbish' at telling the difference?

The OP when answering a man who says women are better art correctly identifying sex than men - agrees immediately.

You're right than men are likely worse

And the OP claims he's not sexist.

Or maybe it's because I agreed with the point the man happened to make, which was that men are worse on average, but disagreed with the portrayal the woman happened to make, which was that women are amazing at determining sex while men are 'rubbish'?

Christ Almighty.

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spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 18:27

mattala · 09/04/2026 18:17

They do on social media. I’m seeing it more and more

It's a TRA thing. TRAs like to say that getting a haircut etc is gender affirming care so that they can then say that "cis" people also get gender care

EmpressaurusKitty · 09/04/2026 18:29

I’ve just worked out who this boy reminds me of.

Owen Jones, obviously. But also, a few years ago, there was a troll thread where some young bloke came to teach us all to use the internet. Does anyone remember that one?

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 18:30

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:24

No frame is inherently that of a male or that of female. However, on average, there are differences between males' frames and females' frames. A frame that is more typical of males' frames is a masculine frame and a frame that is more typical of females' frames is a feminine frame.

It's possible for a male to have a feminine frame. It's possible for a female to have a masculine frame.

Given that I believe gender is defined by what society determines your sex to be, and given that sex determinations can include multiple traits, it is also true that it is perfectly possible for a man to have a feminine frame.

I'm aware that this seems like delving into minutiae, but these little picture differences relate to my bigger picture opinions re. gender.

Men and women have completely different pelvic structures.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:31

But you are using the gendered trait that women are able to get pregnant

It's a biological fact, not a gendered trait.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:32

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 17:07

My disagreement with you and attempts to explain why are not attempts to patronise

Fucksake. You truly have zero self-awareness @FairHippopotama

That comment is on a par with your earlier one ("I'm not being sexist").

What else do you want me to say? 'Yes, this whole post was just trying to make feminists angry because I'm deeply sexist.'

There's nothing I could say that would change your opinion. Even my attempts to clarify that my intent is not to be offensive or patronising get used as evidence that I'm offensive and patronising.

Someone explaining a contradictory opinion shouldn't seem patronising to you. You just think that, because I'm a man, the very fact that I disagree with you is inherently patronising.

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