Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

Adopting stereotypes doesn't make someone male or female, but my argument is that if a male 'passes' as female, then he is a woman; if society applies the stereotypes associated with females to you, then you are a woman. Whether you are a transgender woman or not is based on whether you are actually female or not

I am old enough to remember Boy George’s first appearances on the pop scene.

there was a lot of talk about whether he was male or female. He wore makeup, had long hair and plaits, and clothing was not stereotypically male. Clothing was loose so you couldn’t judge on frame.

i know many people who thought he was a woman. As far as I know Boy George has always been male and not in anyway transgender. Simply a man who didn’t conform to stereotypes.

so are you saying that you would insist Boy George is a woman, as he “passes” as a female?

when my child was small she had short hair and wore trousers and hoodies. She has never identified as anything other than female. Many people insisted she was a boy, does that make her a man?

I don't slap any gender labels on men that might get a manicure. If you do then you are part of the problem.

What I'm talking about has been proven - the ideas of prenatal hormonal exposure resulting in brain-body mismatch have been investigated and do exist, resulting in true gender dysphoria

Nonsense.

Provide a link to these investigations.

"the ideas of prenatal hormonal exposure resulting in brain-body mismatch have been investigated and do exist, resulting in true gender dysphoria."

Not this crap again.

And sexual orientation can, to a degree, be proven, while gender dysphoria can't..so we are back to how do we prove who is genuine?

When I say we I’m talking about trends in society. You can be an exception and there still be a rule

@FairHippopotama you described these girls as mismatched. You assert they have a "brain-body mismatch". That there is something about their brain that doesn't "match" their bodies. What on earth does that mean unless you are referring to sexist stereotypes about women and girls. Having traditionally masculine interests, or behaving in a way that is more commonly associated with males is not a "brain-body mismatch". There is nothing about their brains that don't "match". It's a female brain in a female body. Behaving in a way that isn't expected of them because they are female is not a "brain-body mismatch".

For some reason, this thread (and particularly the OP's posts) has made me think of this long ago thread -

www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/2307274-I-am-everything-you-hate-about-people-on-the-internet-I-am-here-to-help?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

I'm not saying no one knows what sex is anymore; I'm saying that to determine sex, we use gender.

I would disagree with that. If you see a person who is pregnant, I am not assuming their character or personality to determine that they're female.

I don't think height, frame etc are commonly considered 'gender'. You're doing it but I think it's confusing to most of us.

Regardless, I don't really think it's got anything to do with anyone's actual sex or gender identity, so it's getting a bit of a long derail!

If you stop using those kinds of labels then society will eventually catch up and not consider manicures a female stereotype. If you keep using those labels nothing changes.

And what about commenting upon them?

My bad, when I said 'you've confused someone's gender', I was referring to sex. (I will admit, informally, the two terms are interchangeable.)

You're right than men are likely worse, but also there's the survivorship bias: even if you are sure, you cannot be certain because the implication from a trans-identifying person 'passing' is that it cannot be noticed.

Here's one on facial recognition. Then there's Mumsnetter Katie Alcock, who is great on this topic.

I was at a wedding talking to a retired consultant who used to work at the Tavistock. (He left as he couldn't agree with what they were doing with transitioning young kids)

He said his experience was it was the female colleagues who could spot post-transitioning patients with accuracy compared to him and his male staff members.

I still think you're saying the thing I tried to explain...

when you state
There are definitely traits which more males have than females.

But you also state that we only use these traits and nothing else to decide who is male and who is female, it follows that the 'male' we are assigning the traits to is nothing more than 'the person who has those traits' and not their biological actual sex.

So it's circular as per my previous post.

Again I disagree. I think at times you are conflating 'physical characteristics of sex' and 'personality stereotypes'.

What I find very interesting is gender affirming care can be anything from me getting my haircut or my nails done to trans people taking hormones. So clearly these stereotypes are a bit more pervasive in society than people are letting on

Are you now saying that you don't believe that haircuts and manicures are gender affirming care. If so, that was not clear from your original comment.

Sounds like something else to blame mothers for to me. These women and their bloody hormones!

Well would you really say you’d be having gender affirming care next time you get your Botox? I know I won’t be. The use can suggests it wasn’t my viewpoint it’s just how I’ve seen people use the term

I think you keep doing this sort of logic, OP, which is where the muddling is coming in.

Stating there aren't male and female frames, and simultaneously stating that it's possible to have a frame that resembles a female frame. Which you've already stated doesn't exist.

This is the problem, though. You have repeatedly used the terms sex and gender as if they are interchangeable but they're not.

Gender dysphoria has been recognised as a mental disorder for quite a long time. '[T]he disparity between anatomical sex and gender identity was referred to as the psychopathological condition of gender identity disorder, and this was used for its diagnostic name when it was introduced into DSM-III in 1980.' (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22844818/.) This was before the gender-affirming movement as it is now.

It's not so simple as to be diagnosed through a simple brain scan, but there are neurological differences. Think of it like autism or ADHD. It's biological and cannot be helped.

But as I've repeated endlessly on this post, this does not apply to all cases which trans-identifying people claim are gender dysphoria; what seems to be gender dysphoria nowadays is often a manifestation of pressures felt relating to gender etc.

Your final statement could be correct; we don't know for sure though. There hasn't really been enough investigation into this hypothesis (impeded by the gender-affirming movement).

I dont know is botox a female or male stereotypical thing to do?

While I'm definitely middle-class (as are most Mumsnet users), I'm not liberal, and I haven't claimed that women 'now have equality'. My disagreement with you and attempts to explain why are not attempts to patronise.

Throughout this thread you have made statements and then when questioned about them you say well its not really my viewpoint. Maybe you could be more clear as to when you are stating what you actually think as opposed to just making statements that you later say are not your view.

The OP when answering a woman who says women are better at correctly identifying sex than men - demands proof...

do you have any data on women identifying people's sexes and men being 'rubbish' at telling the difference?

The OP when answering a man who says women are better art correctly identifying sex than men - agrees immediately.

You're right than men are likely worse

And the OP claims he's not sexist.

Perhaps you don't mean to patronise but your manner is arrogant and patronising, that's how many of us perceive you, so that must be your definitive identity....

My disagreement with you and attempts to explain why are not attempts to patronise

Fucksake. You truly have zero self-awareness @FairHippopotama

That comment is on a par with your earlier one ("I'm not being sexist").