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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

797 replies

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

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FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:15

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 16:38

If man and woman are gender terms, would you have to come to the conclusion that spannasaurus is a man? But what about the long hair, and the information that spannasuarus mostly wears trousers? Could be a woman, or a Scotsman who hasn't had a haircut in ages, or a transwoman, no? Gender indeterminate on the evidence, so perhaps spannasaurus is non-binary?

My guess is that spannasaurus is a woman, as the majority of people posting on Mumsnet are women, and the user name has connotations of 'gender critical' feminism. The point is that none of the information given proves which sex, and all of the information given is ambiguous as to gender, because gender is such a nebulous slippery concept. Most (I would say all) of us are a mixture of 'feminine' and 'masculine' characteristics, and those characteristics can only be labelled 'masculine' or 'feminine' by reference to stereotypes or frequency of occurrence in men and women.

Given how difficult it is to determine whether spannasaurus is a man or a woman, is gender a useful way of categorising? For practical purposes, isn't sex far more useful, not least because it can be empirically determined when it matters, such as in women's sport or in who a lesbian couple need in order to obtain sperm? The same applies in law, when it comes to ensuring that women's spaces are for women. Law based on gender, as Stonewall tried to make the Equality Act, means that a transman who became pregnant would have no maternity rights. Fortunately for them, the Supreme Court recognised that gender-based women's rights would be nonsensical, and applied the legal principle that law must be interpreted in a coherent way, so the Equality Act must be based on men and women being sex-based terms.

I used the information that I was told to use; outside of that hypothetical I understood spannasaurus is almost certainly female. You're right that a determination based on that information has a large amount of uncertainty and it doesn't prove anything, but that doesn't change the fact that a determination can be made on it, and determinations are constantly made on that sort of information - maybe less so by feminists, but still by women and certainly by men. You're right - we all have unique personalities with masculine and feminine elements. I'm not denying that the very concepts of masculinity and femininity rely on stereotypes. I'm arguing that these stereotypes are still used to determine sex.

Gender is generally not useful for determining sex when considered solely in terms of these stereotypes. However, we have also been discussing masculine and feminine physical traits - also elements of gender. In combination with these, which reflects patterns by sex but are not one-to-one linked with sex (a male can have a feminine gait and a female can have masculine shoulders), sex is determined fairly accurately.

I might have misunderstood you in my last paragraph. You actually said that gender is not a useful way of categorising. I disagree with that because gender describes the societal treatment of people based on what society thinks their sex is. In other words, saying 'females experience misogyny' is a simplification because some females 'pass' as men and don't experience misogyny (sexism directed towards people society assumes are female - women). 'Women experience misogyny' is an accurate statement.

In terms of law, nearly all regulations should be based on sex; I don't disagree there.

Saying spannasaurus is non-binary doesn't really mean anything. I've never seen a compelling definition of non-binary as a consequence of genuine gender dysphoria. Non-binary also isn't a gender even in the gender-affirming view; it's an umbrella term for anything not 'man' or 'woman'. It doesn't connect to any sex and is irrelevant when it comes to determining sex.

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FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:16

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 16:39

@FairHippopotama can I just say, you keep on saying "we" when you mean "I" or you mean, "I am asserting that people".... Your assertions are frequently worded as a matter of agreed fact, when they are not. It is a very irritating argument style.

I'm sorry if I do that; I don't notice it. I did use 'we' in my last reply, but there I used it to mean people in general and people commenting on this post.

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FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:18

Shedmistress · 09/04/2026 16:39

my argument is that if a male 'passes' as female, then he is a woman

What do you mean 'passes'?

If a man isn't trying to pass but does, does he need to be offered a prostate exam or a smear? Which does he have the rights to?

Rights - law - should generally be based on sex. Assuming you mean 'man' to mean 'male', then he should be offered a prostate exam.

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OverTheWater28 · 09/04/2026 17:18

No. Everyone has a sexed body and the possibility of limitless personality traits and interests. Gender identity is made up nonsense

Scout2016 · 09/04/2026 17:19

"It's biological and cannot be helped."

Do you think that about other dysphoria OP? People who are very unwell as a result of eating disorders for example. If not then why not? Why don't we give them weight loss jabs and surgery?

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 17:21

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:15

I used the information that I was told to use; outside of that hypothetical I understood spannasaurus is almost certainly female. You're right that a determination based on that information has a large amount of uncertainty and it doesn't prove anything, but that doesn't change the fact that a determination can be made on it, and determinations are constantly made on that sort of information - maybe less so by feminists, but still by women and certainly by men. You're right - we all have unique personalities with masculine and feminine elements. I'm not denying that the very concepts of masculinity and femininity rely on stereotypes. I'm arguing that these stereotypes are still used to determine sex.

Gender is generally not useful for determining sex when considered solely in terms of these stereotypes. However, we have also been discussing masculine and feminine physical traits - also elements of gender. In combination with these, which reflects patterns by sex but are not one-to-one linked with sex (a male can have a feminine gait and a female can have masculine shoulders), sex is determined fairly accurately.

I might have misunderstood you in my last paragraph. You actually said that gender is not a useful way of categorising. I disagree with that because gender describes the societal treatment of people based on what society thinks their sex is. In other words, saying 'females experience misogyny' is a simplification because some females 'pass' as men and don't experience misogyny (sexism directed towards people society assumes are female - women). 'Women experience misogyny' is an accurate statement.

In terms of law, nearly all regulations should be based on sex; I don't disagree there.

Saying spannasaurus is non-binary doesn't really mean anything. I've never seen a compelling definition of non-binary as a consequence of genuine gender dysphoria. Non-binary also isn't a gender even in the gender-affirming view; it's an umbrella term for anything not 'man' or 'woman'. It doesn't connect to any sex and is irrelevant when it comes to determining sex.

but that doesn't change the fact that a determination can be made on it

How can you say that it doesn't change the fact that a determination can be made when you would have incorrectly determined I was male

EdithStourton · 09/04/2026 17:21

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 11:38

As another person here said, it was feminists who created the distinction between sex and gender, who defined gender as it is now used, not the gender-affirming movement.

Maaaate... I don't think really read what I typed. I can 100% see the value of having terms like 'gender roles' (the social expression of biological sex) and 'gendered expectations' (what a person is 'supposed' to do based on their sex).

Feminists splitting sex and gender doesn't remotely negate my point that 'female' and 'woman' BOTH equal biology, nor my point that you don't get to tell me what to call myself.

ETA a word.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:21

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 16:43

"'Males are on average taller than females' -> 'men are taller than women'.

Firstly, this is just obvious nonsense though. The second does not follow from the first, and it is a mistake to suggest that it does.

If you see someone who's tall, you're more likely to determine that person to be male than female."

Secondly, if I see someone who is tall, I see someone who is tall. I may think that makes them very slightly more likely to be male, but at the same time I will also be seeing many other things about them which will be indicators of their sex, like their hand and feet size, their gait, their build, etc etc. All of which go towards my guess as to whether they are male or female.

Thirdly, none of that is relevant to what sex they actually are. Otherwise, someone's sex depends on other people's perceptions, which is logically a non-starter.

In my opinion, given that I believe gender describes the roles, norms, and expectations associated with either sex, and that the two genders respectively are men and women, the second follows from the first.

You're right that height is only one factor which can go into societal determinations of sex. Height and everything you mention are gendered though (in my opinion) - the sex differences are translated to whether a certain trait is masculine or feminine and the sum of indications of these traits together is used to determine whether someone is male or female. The end result of this, society seeing a person as male or female, is what I believe determines a person's gender as a man or a woman respectively. i.e. it's not sex that changes based on other people's perceptions (sex is biological and cannot change) but gender.

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SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 17:22

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:16

I'm sorry if I do that; I don't notice it. I did use 'we' in my last reply, but there I used it to mean people in general and people commenting on this post.

Yes, that's rather my point.... you are using it to assert that people in general do xyz as an agreed fact, when you mean that you are asserting that people do this, with no evidence or even an argument to back it up. It's time consuming to deal with because trying to discuss anything means highlighting these hidden assertions and challenging them. Which you mostly then ignore anyway.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:22

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 17:21

but that doesn't change the fact that a determination can be made on it

How can you say that it doesn't change the fact that a determination can be made when you would have incorrectly determined I was male

That a determination can be made says nothing about whether that determination is right or wrong

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spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 17:25

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:22

That a determination can be made says nothing about whether that determination is right or wrong

It shows that using sex stereotypes is useless when determining someone's sex.

It's a bit like saying I can determine the weather using chicken bones despite the fact that the bones get the weather wrong 99% of the time.

RobinStrike · 09/04/2026 17:26

@FairHippopotamaAs someone many decades older than you, gender was always used in grammar at school. When learning languages eg German, items had a masculine or feminine or neutral gender. It was also used as a “polite” way of referring to someone’s biological sex because saying the word sex on tv, the news or in general conversation was considered improper. It was an excess of 20th century BBC English. But it always only ever meant the equivalent of sex. The theory of gender as being the definition of the stereotypes started in the 60s where gender stereotyping became a phrase. But it still was linked to sex -women, adult human females were gender stereotyped as were men, adult human males. It’s only with the increase in transsexuals and cross dressers claiming to be female that all this gender language has evolved. It is a way of bypassing the essential fact that none of them are female, or women in any form, trans or otherwise.

OttersOnAPlane · 09/04/2026 17:28

masculine and feminine physical traits - also elements of gender.

No, the physical traits are biological and refer to sex not gender.

I'm sorry if I do that; I don't notice it. I did use 'we' in my last reply, but there I used it to mean people in general and people commenting on this post.

You do it and it's both arrogant and patronising. You don't speak for "people in general."

It shows that using sex stereotypes is useless when determining someone's sex. - Quite, @spannasaurus!

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:32

Scout2016 · 09/04/2026 16:43

How do we know who has genuine dysphoria?
The elderly with dementia who thought they had it and now don't understand their bodies can't do CBT now, can they? Do we only know when we treat with transition and find out of it worked or not? If so that's one hell of a gamble.

My conception of there being a genuine dysphoria and a non-genuine dysphoria is pretty much only based on circumstantial evidence - much more research is needed.

That being said, in my opinion, anyone presenting with gender dysphoria to their GP, a gender clinic, etc. should have to undergo therapy (if possible) to determine whether their apparent dysphoria is neurological (can't be helped) or psychological (not genuine).

I would hope that this therapy would be able to tell the difference, but I'm not saying that it definitely would. Patients would have to be honest (e.g. about their sexual interests, in the case of autogynephilic adult males).

We should not automatically validate gender dysphoria and transitions as medical professionals do, are supposed to do, or are asked to do by gender-affirming activists now.

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RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 17:33

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 17:00

This is the problem, though. You have repeatedly used the terms sex and gender as if they are interchangeable but they're not.

Men find it easier to use interchangeably.

They lose nothing.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:35

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 16:44

"What I'm talking about has been proven - the ideas of prenatal hormonal exposure resulting in brain-body mismatch have been investigated and do exist, resulting in true gender dysphoria. (For illustration, another example of something prenatal hormonal exposure affects is sexual orientation.)"

No it has not. You are talking to us here as if we know nothing at all about this topic, where in fact you are patronising us.

Edited

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7139786/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7031197/

Additionally, see 'Prenatal hormonal environment' in the Wikipedia article 'Causes of gender incongruence'.

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OttersOnAPlane · 09/04/2026 17:36

I the final line earlier but I think we need the full poem.

He Tells Her
(for Ruth B.)

He tells her that the Earth is flat -
He knows the facts, and that is that.
In altercations fierce and long
She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.
She cannot win. He stands his ground.

The planet goes on being round.

Wendy Cope

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:36

RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 17:33

Men find it easier to use interchangeably.

They lose nothing.

I am only aware of mixing it up that one time. I am human; everyone makes mistakes

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Shedmistress · 09/04/2026 17:38

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:35

Even the person who invented Wikipedia tells people not to believe a word of it.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:38

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 16:47

They don't usually pass; you're right. But that's the societal change that the gender-affirming movement asks for: that trans people are treated as the gender they see themselves as.

But how can I treat someone "as the gender they see themselves as" when you have already acknowledged that gender isn't a thing, it's just a bunch of stereotypes? What you're actually asking me to do is to treat them as the sex that they are pretending to be. In other words, to collude with them in their delusion.

Adopting stereotypes doesn't make someone male or female, but my argument is that if a male 'passes' as female, then he is a woman; if society applies the stereotypes associated with females to you, then you are a woman. Whether you are a transgender woman or not is based on whether you are actually female or not.

I understand that this is your argument, but I fundamentally disagree with it. You are effectively trying to reduce the meaning of the terms man and woman to a bunch of deeply flawed stereotypes and to divorce them from their biological reality. A woman is a female adult human. No more, no less. And a man is a male adult human. If you aren't willing to accept that, then we may as well dispense with the terms man and woman altogether because your argument renders the words utterly meaningless.

You're right that we should move past these stereotypes, but they're here to stay at the moment. Throughout history and across many different cultures, various stereotypes - various roles, expectations, and norms - have been applied to men and women. Although I am a gender abolitionist - I agree with you that we all have 'individual interests, preferences and personalities' - I doubt these gendered stereotypes will just fade away.

You're contradicting yourself here, I'm afraid. You can't claim to be a "gender abolitionist" and say that you want to move away from the old stereotypes while simultaneously seeking to perpetuate them by arguing that we should recognise gender and gender identity as a thing. The concept of gender emphasises stereotypes, and it doesn't move us away from them at all. And those stereotypes are only here to stay if we collectively choose to make them stay - they are by no means universal or consistent across different cultures. Asking people to accept that the adoption of certain stereotypes "makes you a man" or "makes you a woman" works in a manner that is diametrically opposed to tackling stereotypes. If a man likes wearing dresses and we pretend that this makes him a woman, that merely strengthens the stereotype that dresses are for women. Wouldn't it be much better instead if we were to say that some men like dresses and that dresses can be for them too if they like them? Perhaps if we all did that, then the stereotypes really would begin to fade away over time, and that would be so much better for everybody.

Just to clarify, my point is not that we use stereotypes for a determination of gender, but for a determination of sex instead. What set of stereotypes we then apply to people reflects their gender.

With regard to the first sentence here, no, I fundamentally disagree that we use stereotypes for a determination of sex. Sex is determined by biology, and most of us are easily capable of recognising biological sex regardless of "gender" markers which might be intended to persuade us otherwise. I don't understand your second sentence in this paragraph, it appears to be tautological.

For example, we use a woman's short height, feminine face, and dress to determine that she is female. Given we determine her to be female, we apply feminine stereotypes (stereotypes of women) to her. This means she is a woman. However, it could really be that 'society' was wrong, and that this woman is male.

Again, I don't really know what you're getting at here. A woman cannot be male. I think you are saying that a short trans woman with a feminine face could be mistaken for a woman, and that we would therefore make other assumptions about her because we would mistakenly believe her to be a woman? But that argument is flawed, a)because it's highly unlikely that even a short trans woman would actually be mistaken for a female and b) those of us who reject sex-based stereotypes tend not to make loads of other assumptions about people based on their sex in any case.

Yes, I am asking you to 'collude in their delusion'. I think that is helpful for individuals with true gender dysphoria. 'Colluding', as you so eloquently put it, does not mean allowing males into female spaces, allowing males into female sports, etc. The gender-affirming movement may want that, not me. For me, it primarily means using a new name and using different pronouns.

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SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 17:43

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Those links do not prove what you are claiming. Have you actually read them, read the conclusions and considered the implications fully of what they are saying?

HelenaWaiting · 09/04/2026 17:47

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 02:39

I am not setting out to offend; I am simply not censoring myself despite knowing I might cause offence. You are being hypocritical: the standard you are trying to impose would also restrict you and others who are gender-critical from saying certain things because they are offensive. I assume you would not do that. I can't think of a single forum platform that would ban me for using it--not Reddit, not Twitter, not 4chan; not even Mumsnet (hopefully).

If I used a term when addressing someone that they told me the found offensive, I would never use it when addressing that person again. You, on the other hand, having been told repeatedly that "cis" is offensive, gleefully declared that you will continue to use it because you know better than all of us. And that makes me a hypocrite? You're a misogynist, and you need to take your games elsewhere.

Waitingfordoggo · 09/04/2026 17:48

But @FairHippopotama I’m just not willing to join in with other people’s delusions.

You see the problem with pretending men are women when it comes to sports etc. You have decided that that’s where you personally draw the line but that you are happy to use people’s chosen pronouns. It’s not a very logical position.

Many of us here draw the line where reality draws the line- men don’t belong in women’s space and men are not ‘she’.

Why does it bother you whether MNers use people’s chosen pronouns or not? And didn’t you use correct-sex pronouns for your trans sibling earlier in the thread? (Or am I confusing you with a different poster/different thread?)

CompleteGinasaur · 09/04/2026 17:49

OttersOnAPlane · 09/04/2026 17:36

I the final line earlier but I think we need the full poem.

He Tells Her
(for Ruth B.)

He tells her that the Earth is flat -
He knows the facts, and that is that.
In altercations fierce and long
She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.
She cannot win. He stands his ground.

The planet goes on being round.

Wendy Cope

Thanks for quoting the last line earlier, @OttersOnAPlane; it made me go and remind myself of the whole poem and I've spent the rest of the afternoon in The Wonderful Witty World of Wendy Cope..!

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:50

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 16:47

They don't usually pass; you're right. But that's the societal change that the gender-affirming movement asks for: that trans people are treated as the gender they see themselves as.

But how can I treat someone "as the gender they see themselves as" when you have already acknowledged that gender isn't a thing, it's just a bunch of stereotypes? What you're actually asking me to do is to treat them as the sex that they are pretending to be. In other words, to collude with them in their delusion.

Adopting stereotypes doesn't make someone male or female, but my argument is that if a male 'passes' as female, then he is a woman; if society applies the stereotypes associated with females to you, then you are a woman. Whether you are a transgender woman or not is based on whether you are actually female or not.

I understand that this is your argument, but I fundamentally disagree with it. You are effectively trying to reduce the meaning of the terms man and woman to a bunch of deeply flawed stereotypes and to divorce them from their biological reality. A woman is a female adult human. No more, no less. And a man is a male adult human. If you aren't willing to accept that, then we may as well dispense with the terms man and woman altogether because your argument renders the words utterly meaningless.

You're right that we should move past these stereotypes, but they're here to stay at the moment. Throughout history and across many different cultures, various stereotypes - various roles, expectations, and norms - have been applied to men and women. Although I am a gender abolitionist - I agree with you that we all have 'individual interests, preferences and personalities' - I doubt these gendered stereotypes will just fade away.

You're contradicting yourself here, I'm afraid. You can't claim to be a "gender abolitionist" and say that you want to move away from the old stereotypes while simultaneously seeking to perpetuate them by arguing that we should recognise gender and gender identity as a thing. The concept of gender emphasises stereotypes, and it doesn't move us away from them at all. And those stereotypes are only here to stay if we collectively choose to make them stay - they are by no means universal or consistent across different cultures. Asking people to accept that the adoption of certain stereotypes "makes you a man" or "makes you a woman" works in a manner that is diametrically opposed to tackling stereotypes. If a man likes wearing dresses and we pretend that this makes him a woman, that merely strengthens the stereotype that dresses are for women. Wouldn't it be much better instead if we were to say that some men like dresses and that dresses can be for them too if they like them? Perhaps if we all did that, then the stereotypes really would begin to fade away over time, and that would be so much better for everybody.

Just to clarify, my point is not that we use stereotypes for a determination of gender, but for a determination of sex instead. What set of stereotypes we then apply to people reflects their gender.

With regard to the first sentence here, no, I fundamentally disagree that we use stereotypes for a determination of sex. Sex is determined by biology, and most of us are easily capable of recognising biological sex regardless of "gender" markers which might be intended to persuade us otherwise. I don't understand your second sentence in this paragraph, it appears to be tautological.

For example, we use a woman's short height, feminine face, and dress to determine that she is female. Given we determine her to be female, we apply feminine stereotypes (stereotypes of women) to her. This means she is a woman. However, it could really be that 'society' was wrong, and that this woman is male.

Again, I don't really know what you're getting at here. A woman cannot be male. I think you are saying that a short trans woman with a feminine face could be mistaken for a woman, and that we would therefore make other assumptions about her because we would mistakenly believe her to be a woman? But that argument is flawed, a)because it's highly unlikely that even a short trans woman would actually be mistaken for a female and b) those of us who reject sex-based stereotypes tend not to make loads of other assumptions about people based on their sex in any case.

(Meant to say this in my last reply, apologies)

As I've said, feminists are the ones who developed the concept of gender. Perhaps it is no longer feminists who hold up male and female as sexes and man and woman as genders, but given gender in my purview still accurately describes societal treatment if not 'biological reality', I disagree that my meaning 'renders the words utterly meaningless'.

The position of a gender abolitionist is consistent with the idea that men don't have to be masculine and women don't have to be feminine. It's not mutually exclusive with the concept that men are those who are perceived as males and women are those who are perceived as females.

I don't think we should recognise gender identity, at least as the gender-affirming movement describe it. People who don't identify as trans don't have a gender identity, yet gender-affirming people argue that we all have a gender identity, so I disagree with them on that.

Recognising gender as real means recognising that these gendered stereotypes still exist. The way that they exist, what exactly is defined as masculine or feminine differs across cultures, but the fact that a masculinity and a femininity exist is essentially constant and universal, as far as I'm aware.

It's not asking people to accept that stereotypes makes you a man or woman; I'm asking people to accept that which set of stereotypes society applies to you makes you a man or a woman. I am under the impression that is consistent with descriptions of womanhood as necessarily coloured by misogyny etc. Wanting people to stop believing those stereotypes is not mutually exclusive to admitting they still exist.

We use biological patterns in certain traits to determine sex. But these patterns are not neatly split along male and female lines. Other users have brought up hip width and the effect of that on gait; I have already shown or explained that there is a wide distribution in the human population for this. While wider hips are feminine, they are not necessarily female. A female compared to a male doesn't always have wider hips.

I am contending that a male can be perceived as a woman, i.e. that trans people are able to pass. Even if you don't consciously determine someone's sex, you almost certainly do it subconsciously.

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