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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

797 replies

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

OP posts:
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Scout2016 · 09/04/2026 18:35

EmpressaurusKitty · 09/04/2026 18:29

I’ve just worked out who this boy reminds me of.

Owen Jones, obviously. But also, a few years ago, there was a troll thread where some young bloke came to teach us all to use the internet. Does anyone remember that one?

If he keeps on delving into minutiae like this we might all need to throw up our hands and just admit our lady brains can't keep up with his man one.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:35

Scout2016 · 09/04/2026 17:19

"It's biological and cannot be helped."

Do you think that about other dysphoria OP? People who are very unwell as a result of eating disorders for example. If not then why not? Why don't we give them weight loss jabs and surgery?

Eating disorders aren't solely neurological. They aren't permanent either, and they don't necessarily result in dysphoria, although they can.

I'm talking about a purely neurological, permanent dysphoric disorder or condition.

OP posts:
TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:36

I'm sorry if I've explained it in a confusing way, but that is what I believe, given the definitions of gender and sex I'm using

Yes, unfortunately your mansplaining has gone right above my pretty little head, as I am but a weak and feeble woman.

Shedmistress · 09/04/2026 18:36

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:24

No frame is inherently that of a male or that of female. However, on average, there are differences between males' frames and females' frames. A frame that is more typical of males' frames is a masculine frame and a frame that is more typical of females' frames is a feminine frame.

It's possible for a male to have a feminine frame. It's possible for a female to have a masculine frame.

Given that I believe gender is defined by what society determines your sex to be, and given that sex determinations can include multiple traits, it is also true that it is perfectly possible for a man to have a feminine frame.

I'm aware that this seems like delving into minutiae, but these little picture differences relate to my bigger picture opinions re. gender.

Yes, a female skeleton is different to a male skeleton.

SilenceInside · 09/04/2026 18:36

Omfg. Someone explaining a contradictory opinion shouldn’t seem patronising to you. No indeed, and yet here you are managing it admirably. So the conclusion is that it’s something to do with your manner and way of interacting that’s causing it. Not because you’re male.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:38

I'm talking about a purely neurological, permanent dysphoric disorder or condition.

Are you?
Most of us are talking about yet another MRA who has appeared on the FWR board for the first time.

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:39

EmpressaurusKitty · 09/04/2026 18:29

I’ve just worked out who this boy reminds me of.

Owen Jones, obviously. But also, a few years ago, there was a troll thread where some young bloke came to teach us all to use the internet. Does anyone remember that one?

Didn't know who he was but searching him up makes me upset that you think that...

A left-wing journalist who is pictured wearing a hoodie with a Palestinian flag on it, previously worked as a trade union lobbyist, and thinks chav culture is an attempt to demonise the working class. Someone who currently supports the Greens😖

OP posts:
RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 18:39

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 16:14

They don't usually pass; you're right. But that's the societal change that the gender-affirming movement asks for: that trans people are treated as the gender they see themselves as.

Adopting stereotypes doesn't make someone male or female, but my argument is that if a male 'passes' as female, then he is a woman; if society applies the stereotypes associated with females to you, then you are a woman. Whether you are a transgender woman or not is based on whether you are actually female or not.

You're right that we should move past these stereotypes, but they're here to stay at the moment. Throughout history and across many different cultures, various stereotypes - various roles, expectations, and norms - have been applied to men and women. Although I am a gender abolitionist - I agree with you that we all have 'individual interests, preferences and personalities' - I doubt these gendered stereotypes will just fade away.

Just to clarify, my point is not that we use stereotypes for a determination of gender, but for a determination of sex instead. What set of stereotypes we then apply to people reflects their gender.

For example, we use a woman's short height, feminine face, and dress to determine that she is female. Given we determine her to be female, we apply feminine stereotypes (stereotypes of women) to her. This means she is a woman. However, it could really be that 'society' was wrong, and that this woman is male.

They don't usually pass; you're right. But that's the societal change that the gender-affirming movement asks for: that trans people are treated as the gender they see themselves as.

How do I treat someone as the "gender" they see themselves as? What does that require of me?

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:41

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 17:25

It shows that using sex stereotypes is useless when determining someone's sex.

It's a bit like saying I can determine the weather using chicken bones despite the fact that the bones get the weather wrong 99% of the time.

Except the point is that you don't determine the weather using chicken bones. No one does. Yet society does determine sex using gendered stereotypes. Perhaps it shouldn't, but I'm not making a normative statement; it's a descriptive one.

OP posts:
TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:41

Eating disorders aren't solely neurological. They aren't permanent either, and they don't necessarily result in dysphoria, although they can

Oh my. Are you an expert on EDs as well?

Amazing that there's no end to the wisdom of this (checks notes) youngster who could be my great-grandson.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 18:42

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 17:38

Yes, I am asking you to 'collude in their delusion'. I think that is helpful for individuals with true gender dysphoria. 'Colluding', as you so eloquently put it, does not mean allowing males into female spaces, allowing males into female sports, etc. The gender-affirming movement may want that, not me. For me, it primarily means using a new name and using different pronouns.

But why would it be beneficial for these individuals to collude in their delusion? How does that really serve them in reality?

I wouldn't collude with an anorexic person's delusion that they were overweight.

I wouldn't collude with a paranoid person's delusion that they were going to be kidnapped by aliens.

So why would I pretend that I think someone is a man or a woman simply because they say so? Wouldn't it be much better if we, as a society, could ensure that trans people had access to appropriate psychiatric support to help them adjust to the reality of their biological sex while also tackling any social prejudices against people who don't want to conform to traditional sex-related stereotypes?

Do you not think that there is something incredibly patronising and humiliating about humouring someone by pretending that you believe they are something that you know they are not? Could you really be said to have a trusting, respectful and equal relationship with someone to whom you are constantly lying? I don't think it's possible, personally.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:43

Except the point is that you don't determine the weather using chicken bones. No one does

I do. Everyone in my part of Argyll (and Bute) does.

popery · 09/04/2026 18:44

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:41

Except the point is that you don't determine the weather using chicken bones. No one does. Yet society does determine sex using gendered stereotypes. Perhaps it shouldn't, but I'm not making a normative statement; it's a descriptive one.

I'm quite interested in the assertion that society determines sex using gendered stereotypes, because I really haven't seen this very often - at least, not so much in person (people might assume an email is written by the opposite sex person if it's forcefully worded vs diplomatic, etc).

You see a person caring for their children, and - using nothing else - you conclude they are a woman? Is this something you genuinely do?

Or do you mean you look at physical sex characteristics?

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:45

Waitingfordoggo · 09/04/2026 17:48

But @FairHippopotama I’m just not willing to join in with other people’s delusions.

You see the problem with pretending men are women when it comes to sports etc. You have decided that that’s where you personally draw the line but that you are happy to use people’s chosen pronouns. It’s not a very logical position.

Many of us here draw the line where reality draws the line- men don’t belong in women’s space and men are not ‘she’.

Why does it bother you whether MNers use people’s chosen pronouns or not? And didn’t you use correct-sex pronouns for your trans sibling earlier in the thread? (Or am I confusing you with a different poster/different thread?)

It's a logical position considering that transitioning is medically effective for certain people and not 'pretending men are women' ruins the whole point of the transition.

It doesn't necessarily bother me when people don't use correct pronouns on a online forum. I don't think I've said that? I did start using pronouns based on sex in references to my sister when I realised that no one else here would refer to her as a man. I was trying to keep up the delusion, as you might put it, but that's pointless if no one else is.

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 18:46

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 03:19

So what is gender then? Does this mean 'woman' is not a gender?

No, woman is not a gender. For all that the trans community has tried to make it so.

Woman means adult human female. In other words, woman is a description of sex.

If you think it's a gender, then give us a clear definition of a woman that makes no reference reference to sex. You won't be able to.

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 18:47

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:41

Except the point is that you don't determine the weather using chicken bones. No one does. Yet society does determine sex using gendered stereotypes. Perhaps it shouldn't, but I'm not making a normative statement; it's a descriptive one.

I'm fairly sure there will be a group of people somewhere who use bones to determine the weather.

The point is, trying to determine someone's sex according to which stereotype that most conform to is useless. People determine other people's sex from looking at their physical bodies. You need to understand the difference between the physical attributes of a sexed body and socially constructed stereotypes.

Waitwhat23 · 09/04/2026 18:48

EmpressaurusKitty · 09/04/2026 18:29

I’ve just worked out who this boy reminds me of.

Owen Jones, obviously. But also, a few years ago, there was a troll thread where some young bloke came to teach us all to use the internet. Does anyone remember that one?

I had the same thought and added upthread -

www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/2307274-I-am-everything-you-hate-about-people-on-the-internet-I-am-here-to-help?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:48

I'm going to stop replying to people now. (It's not because you made a really good point that I just want to avoid having to respond to. I haven't ignored any good points on purpose.) I think the usefulness of this for me has decreased as the number of people accusing me of being sexist and/or patronising has increased!

Thank you if you did respond though; I very much enjoyed hearing a perspective that is often hidden in the media and whatnot.

OP posts:
RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 18:49

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 16:35

My point there was that anything we use to determine sex forms part of gender. 'Males are on average taller than females' -> 'men are taller than women'. If you see someone who's tall, you're more likely to determine that person to be male than female.

Other people on this post have frequently requested data from me; do you have any data on women identifying people's sexes and men being 'rubbish' at telling the difference? I don't dispute that men are likely slightly worse, but I doubt the difference is as large as you claim.

If you see someone who's tall, you're more likely to determine that person to be male than female.

That is just not true. We use many physical cues, not just one, and certainly not just height! We may be slightly amused on seeing a very short man hand in hand with his very tall wife, but the fact that we are amused demonstrates that we know which is which, even if his head is at her chest level. And he is no less a man, and she is no less a woman, because they are unusual in that respect.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:49

I did start using pronouns based on sex in references to my sister when I realised that no one else here would refer to her as a man.
Newsflash. She isn't a man.

I was trying to keep up the delusion, as you might put it, but that's pointless if no one else is.
It's pointless at one end of the scale and utterly cruel (to her) at the other end.

Surely you must see that you shouldn't encourage your sister in this delusion?

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/04/2026 18:49

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:41

Except the point is that you don't determine the weather using chicken bones. No one does. Yet society does determine sex using gendered stereotypes. Perhaps it shouldn't, but I'm not making a normative statement; it's a descriptive one.

I think you're wrong on this.

Society determines sex primarily on the basis of biological sex markers. This is why we typically recognise instantly when a man is dressed up as a woman. If your theory was correct, we wouldn't be able to identify when people were trans but we can.

EmpressaurusKitty · 09/04/2026 18:49

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:39

Didn't know who he was but searching him up makes me upset that you think that...

A left-wing journalist who is pictured wearing a hoodie with a Palestinian flag on it, previously worked as a trade union lobbyist, and thinks chav culture is an attempt to demonise the working class. Someone who currently supports the Greens😖

A smug & unpleasant bloke who loves to lecture women on gender identity. Although admittedly he could have moved on from that to lecturing on other topics.

You really do not want to grow up to be like Owen Jones. And a good way to avoid that is to recognise that you don’t know everything.

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 18:50

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 18:45

It's a logical position considering that transitioning is medically effective for certain people and not 'pretending men are women' ruins the whole point of the transition.

It doesn't necessarily bother me when people don't use correct pronouns on a online forum. I don't think I've said that? I did start using pronouns based on sex in references to my sister when I realised that no one else here would refer to her as a man. I was trying to keep up the delusion, as you might put it, but that's pointless if no one else is.

The recent Finnish study suggests that medically transitioning is not effective and mental health is worse after having surgery.

Have you read that study?

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 09/04/2026 18:50

I think the usefulness of this for me has decreased as the number of people accusing me of being sexist and/or patronising has increased!

That'll be because you're sexist and patronising.

Waitwhat23 · 09/04/2026 18:51

With special credit to this post from page 2 of that thread

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?