Why is sex the only protected characteristic that people want to, or are ‘allowed’ to, self identify into? by

[SingleSexMattersInCharity]

This has been something that I mull over. Why is sex the only PC that society allows people to self id into with very little checks and balances? You can get your marker on your driving licence changed very easily.

disability: yes, I realise that people can self identify as disabled but if they want benefits associated with disability there is, quite frankly, a horrendous procedure to go through in order get benefits.

Age: if someone wanted to be older to get pension they wouldn’t be accepted or alternatively if they wanted to attend nursery but were 20 they would not be allowed. Think of the Scottish case of the man who pretended to be younger to be in high school again.

maternity: women who fake pregnancy are absolutely derided.

race: we all think of the obvious case of the women who faked being black but I’m also thinking about when you want to change your citizenship and the expensive, complicated and time consuming process you have to go through to achieve a change of citizenship.

Campaigners have fought for easy, cheap and dignified changes to “changing sex” (not possible as we know) but other PCs have very expensive, complicated and dehumanising process.

why is the PC of sex different?

Ah ok read that wrong.

Well there aren’t just trans women, there are trans men too. So what you do to one you do to the other too. So when I looked at this I just thought of my trans friend and what they went through. And I kind of think him changing his gender on his birth certificate didn’t give him any more rights. It was a difficult process that he’s glad he went through but isn’t something he found easy.

Sex is also the only protected characteristic that self-proclaimed social justice warriors don't consider valid in terms of intersectionality.

Argue the need for spaces or groups or initiatives specifically for those who are women (adopting just for the thought exercise their nonsensical gender-identity definition of woman), and are also black / Muslim / disabled? That's intersectionality!

Argue the need for spaces or groups or initiatives specifically for those who are women (again, in their own terms), and also have female reproductive biology? That's exclusion, you bigot!

Sorry no time to read thread so this may have been answered.

The point is it cant. That is why the Supreme Court ruled that sex could only be biology. Not just because of the fact of biology but because NO OTHER protected catergory could be imposed on or undermined,

In other words that the catergory of sex was being DISCRIMINATED against if the idea that you could identify into.

So it cant be. It never could be.

It was only Stonewall who preached this.

That is why a man with a GRC has the "legal sex" of a woman but is not any actual biological woman.

Although some of us suspect that the way they wrote the EA was the trojan horse that they then wanted to use to say yes of couse legal sex was the same as actual sex.

Just to restate the most important part of the Supreme Court ruling was that the illegal concept that legal sex and actual sex was and therefore STILL IS descrimination against sex as a protected characteristic.

I suspect this is one of the reasons the Labour Party and others are being so slow to implement the Supreme Court ruling is because to comply with it means they are having to accept that sex aquired through a certificate in NOT equal or the same as biological sex.

The Supreme Court decision was intersectional. It took protected characteristics independently and looked at how they interact.

Just not with the weird twists Stonewall invented.

I don’t understand how the Supreme Court’s logic can be seen as anything but intersectional. Yet it generated outrage and dismay.

Changing gender on a document doesn’t technically confer more rights. It does validate your friend’s idea that as a biological woman they have done status as a male.

You are right though, most of ‘trans rights’ aren’t legally given, they’ve been illegally taken. If your friend uses the male toilets she will be violating the dignity of the men using them. The process for the passport and official document validating their gender dysphoria has a part to play.

OP – I thought this line was interesting from your chat Gpt analysis: Sex appears different because transgender law was developed around dignity, privacy and social recognition rather than objective verification…

It missing a bit. ‘Transgender law’ (does it mean the gender recognition act?) was developed around the dignity and privacy of those who consider themselves transgender. The dignity and privacy of women was never factored in. Effectively we’re in a position of having to fight for that in retrospect.

Luckily you can now support all your trans friends with the key information that they haven't been banned from sports at all. And any potential Olympians that they are good to go.

A good question, if you can change your 'sex marker' on you birth certificate why can't you change your 'age marker' ie DOB. Enquiring minds want to know.

If I could change 62 to 59 I could retire now, instead of having to go another 3 years, I've been 'living as an old person' for 2 years, I wear old lady clothes, I've got grumpy down to a tee, why can't I change the 'date assigned at birth' for one that aligns with how my aged soul feels I am. 🤔

Changing gender should be a medical process, because that’s what it is. After all, most are taking hormones and some go for surgery. There are psychological issues too. Self ID is problematic.

…The process of changing gender should have dignity and good care embedded in the process. But it should not be a free for all.

I think a lot of it has been driven by male AGPs who want to indulge in their kink the whole time.

We are all supposed to be totally fine with all and any sexual behaviours these days and celebrate kinks rather than shaming them. The fact that they cleverly hitched all the TQ+ nonsense to the LGB wagon added another barrier to expressing disapproval. Then add in that it is men, who have the power in society, who want to change things for their benefit and you get a lot of support from women who want to curry favour and be seen to be the cool, progressive girls.

It reminds me of all the ‘free love’ BS when the pill first became widely available. Women were led to believe that having sex with any man who asked for it was modern and enlightened, whereas what it really meant was that women couldn’t say no to any creep that fancied a shag.

Disability is considered to some extent self id.

for example the difference between deaf and Deaf.
someone can be deaf in that they cannot hear. They may or may not consider this a disability.

some do and some don’t.

No. You cannot self-id your sex. As the Supreme Court clearly explained certificated sex makes no sense for the protected characteristics of gender reassignment or sexual orientation. If you are same sex attracted you are attracted to those of the same biological sex not those of the opposite sex. To undergo gender reassignment you must be transitioning from one biological sex to another.

I’m a bit confused by this. I understand safety and I’m the first person to argue with you. But I don’t understand how supporting someone to live in a way that feels authentic to them is putting men at risk? 😂😂 again would be the first to argue about this but trans men can’t always use the urinal. They’re going into the cubicle, which is much more private.
if a man has decided to follow you into the toilets and do something to you, little pictures on the doors aren’t going to stop him. You know why? Because it’s illegal to do it anyway and he’s doing it anyway.
surely the solution is more research into gender dsyphoira? Not to hate people and exclude them? Being trans on the whole is not easy. You face discrimination every day. It’s much easier to just wait until dark to attack someone than go to all this trouble to change gender?
please explain? Because when you hate on trans people you’re not just hating on the men who you think do it to control women. You’re also shitting on a vulnerable group that includes a lot of people who have a genuine issue that causes them distress in their day to day life.

It's not a question of risk. It's decency & propriety. People in the UK expect sex segregation for toilets, showers, communal changing etc Both men & women feel uncomfortable with someone of the opposite sex intruding where they have no place going.
Men don't want your female friend in the Gents so she shouldn't be using them. Validating her identity as a pretend man is not a job for men.

And how does the best practise 3rd space resonate with you? So like toilets for men, women and neutral gendered?
as the mother of 2 boys, I will always use the disabled. Gender neutral is great for parents out with their kids who can’t use their genders bathroom. so doing things like this - gender neutral spaces as well as single sex spaces- benefits not just trans people.
like how is a third space you don’t have to use impacting on your rights and safety? Queer spaces don’t tend to have single sex toilets. They tend to have private cubicles and if alcohol is involved there’s a bouncer there.

It’s a bit more nuanced than you’re making it out to be. It’s quite shocking hearing you so angry about a marginalised group that face prejudice every day.
you don’t have to exclude them completely, you can listen to their concerns, say what works - eg, third gender neutral optional toilets - and what doesn’t - trans people in single sex changing rooms - without completely dismissing someone else’s reasonable request.

my friend is not going around scaring men in toilets. He’s living his life and contributing to the planet and a lovely person. Why wouldn’t I call him he? you don’t have to like it but I’d like to understand more about your pov and how you got their without you insulting my friends?

In using a urinal men expose their penises. They do that in a single sex space. Your friend if she so uses those spaces removes men’s right to the privacy of a single sex space. It’s a matter of dignity.

This isn’t hating on anyone - it’s stating an objective fact. It’s been a legally observed fact too.

Your friend puts her individual perspective above the rights of all men. That’s a breach of the law and also incredibly selfish.

like how is a third space you don’t have to use impacting on your rights and safety?
It doesn't. If the TRA movement put their energy into lobbying for third spaces I'd be right there with them. Unfortunately the emphasis has seemed to be on pushing for men who say they're women being able to use women's loos/changing rooms etc. As well as being able to compete against women in sport.
It is interesting seeing your 'naive' writing style change as the posts go on.

He funnily enough doesn’t look at them. There is urinal etiquette - ask men about this it is hilarious. It’s not polite to stand next to someone. If there’s no space you use the cubicle.
gay men are more of the risk here than trans men for obvious reasons by your logic??

When women were suggesting provision of gender neutral toilets for trans people to use they were told that it was transphobic.

Because sexism is acceptable.

Yes and that is the problem but they’re not the only people in the trans umbrella.
thanks that you think my writing style is niave but youre not really engaging with my points. Youre just insulting me, which is making it very hard to have a respectful convo with you

Sorry, are you suggesting that gay men are a risk to other men in toilets.

People with delusions may think they are the Queen but we don’t go around consulting on how they can have a throne room.

Your female friend can use toilets for her biological sex. She can get some counselling to support her in this endeavour. What she doesn’t need is a cast of men whose legal rights are removed to support her dysphoria.

That’s not hate - that’s supporting her life grounded in reality.

We wouldn’t support her to pretend to be black, or disabled, or pretend to be a child, fake a pregnancy to access maternity spaces and so on. Pretending to be a man and violating their single sex spaces is illegal. What’s not illegal is for your friend to use female toilets etc.

No but I feel like you are? My implying trans people are all pervs who need to be excluded, it feels very close to these old homophobic arguments

You are not aware of what she does in the men’s loos. But her very presence is illegal and she is putting her ideology ahead of their dignity. That’s illegal and selfish.