Men who say they are women

[Shedmistress]

Men who say they are women and then also say 'I don't like men in women's spaces'.

They totally understand that the men that are in women's spaces, are them, right?

They must know that.

We know they know that.

They know that we know they know that.

They know full well that the reason 'nobody has ever challenged me' is because women don't want a punch in the face. Or to face years of a tribunal because the man who says he is a woman went crying to the manager.

They say they are victims of the patricarchy, but they ARE the patriarchy. They know this. Because they are men.

This whole 'needing to use female spaces' comes from the doctors who would only sign off on a surgery if the men had duped people into allowing them to use female spaces, and to which we refer back to the above points of nobody wanting to challenge them. Not because of the potential for male violence, just for the exploitation of females who don't want to be punched.

I find it fascinating, i really do, the delusion to which we are all supposed to dance around and the deletions when women just say no. Or when women refer to their own situations having come across these men and the inferences that 'we've never met one, so how would we even tell'. For me it is the personal experiences that made me as hard line as I am.

Noooo! Please don't encourage quoting the OP! Just say "OP:"

I didn't think replying on a thread to the original post would be so confusing to so many...explains this forum a little

They are not shy of advertising it

It was unclear who you were talking to. But by all means have your little dig.

I for one don't want you to be put at risk, and it's obvious from the behaviour of institutions that the great and the good, and society at large, don't want you put at risk. The EHRC interim update recommended that transsexuals not be left with no alternative but to use the facilities of their sex, and the High Court agreed that would likely be discrimination as to gender reassignment.

I can't believe how ungrateful you are for this massive concession. We don't do it for other vulnerable males, yet here we all are, debating endlessly about how to give you gender neutral facilities in a safe and dignified way.

Nevertheless, I agree with this concession, at least as long as this madness continues in its present form, because I view what ails you as either a psychological disability or a quasi-religious belief, both of which are protected beliefs, requiring accommodation by society.

That accommodation is limited by the need not to discriminate as to sex and sexual orientation. So...

Ah, you can't always get what you want (no, no, baby)
You can't always get what you want (you can't now, now)
You can't always get what you want
Hmm, but if you try sometime, you just might find
You just might find that you get what you need
Ah, yeah
Ah, yeah, do that

.explains this forum a little

Erm... you're on page 7 of a discussion, so most posts have followed the conversation as it evolves, and are responding to the most recent points of discussion.

You're perfectly welcome to go back to the OP and address its contents without referencing any subsequent points, but obviously it will help users understand that context you're responding to if you make it clear it's in direct response to the OP.

I'm not clear what you mean about 'explains this forum a little'. On the face of it, it sounds a bit snide. Did you mean it like that - ie you've landed here with a preconceived notion of what you will find and have identified other posters on the board as opponents - or are you here in good faith?

I tend to see women discussing their rights in a framework of their choosing and refusing to budge in the face of attempts to drag them into a framework chosen by men, so same shit different century as per usual. It all seems to me to be endlessly trying to reinvent the wheel with the women saying nope, we like this round one, it works for us and we are keeping it.
It's like a combination of all the usual male entitlement and threats etc and then the toddler antics such as name calling, I'll thceam until I'm sick so nerr, it's so bloody childish and yes, pretty funny sometimes. Sarah Phillimore reported that during glinners court case dear Tarquin made remarks about how all terfs smell, oh what a compelling and so grown up argument. My arse.

I also think that the men who post on these threads forget that some of us have actually been abused by men who have declared that they are women.

They either have no fucking idea what others in their political movement are doing or they just like to believe their own ignorant accusations that ‘we have never met any trans people’.

Seriously, what the actual fuck!

Why the fuck would any woman who has had hours of abuse screamed in her face by the very people demanding access to female single sex provisions believe that these men have actually become women? The actions of those men highlight the very reasons we don’t want them in those female provisions.

Yet we are expected to believe that they are no longer male when they most certainly are. And no, it doesn’t matter when they transitioned or what treatments they have had. We have been abused directly by men who fit all the different categories they try to make to defend their personal demands.

Bugger, prevous post meant to be a reply to this, but my quote disappeared, I probably cleared it by mistake, apologies.

😂 I tend to use OP if I'm within about 10 posts of the original post but I don't understand what's wrong with quoting the OP when you're posting far down the thread, I can understand your advice if it's a long OP, but this one was relatively short. 🤔

I've been reading mumsnet a long time and never seen anyone else have an issue with just replying to OP without quoting! But my experience of this forum, through trying to genuinely engage in good faith, is that others here do not engage in good faith, are very aggressive, and will pick a fight about anything...like replying to the OP without quoting. Anytime I try to actually engage here I'm just met with a fight

You are right, I expect there is a law under which using the wrong toilets could be prosecuted, and the one you've quoted may well fit the bill. But it's a catch-all law, presumably designed for flexibility for police officers! So the behaviour itself is not specifically outlined, a bit like breach of the peace, where you could get prosecuted for shouting, but not everyone who shouts is prosecuted. I expect I have done some of the behaviours which might, under specific circumstances and to a greater degree, constitute a breach of the peace or an offence under the public order act. But I don't know, because to be honest I'm not sure exactly where the bar would be between slightly riotous but basically inoffensive behaviour, and an actual offence. People should understand the law, and exactly when their actions cross from inappropriate to criminal. I suggest the toilets thing falls under this. Many ordinary people are unsure, and that's not a good thing for anyone.

I just think a specific law would be very helpful now, given that the social contract (which used to mean such a law was unnecessary) has been broken. I don't see it ever being put back together effectively without a law backing it up.

they just like to believe their own ignorant accusations that ‘we have never met any trans people’.

And they assume that GC people somehow have gender identities despite everything and are therefore "cisgender".

I was trying to be helpful in my advice to you. I wasn't trying to 'fight'. Please don't assume a negative attitude towards you on my part.

Ah, I did respond to your point in good faith but you haven't replied - wondered what your thoughts were...

But then you referred to one poster as "so many" so decided perhaps you're not here for honest discussion - absolutely no worries if not.

Have you reflected on any of the points that were made by the people who are 'fighting' you, perhaps your approach could do with some fine tuning. I for one was very confused by your first comment, I didn't realise it was directly relating to the OP, it was a bit a non sequitur.

When I read your post, this bit stood out:
Sarah Phillimore reported that during glinners court case dear Tarquin made remarks about how all terfs smell, oh what a compelling and so grown up argument.

It's a recurring theme.
We've been told recently that the 'rest of the world' doesn't think like us here on terf island.
Basically, many attempts to shame us here in the UK (plus our international allies).
Apparently we need to fall in line with what the 'rest of the world' thinks - as if it's some great big global popularity contest.
The 'rest of the world' thinks t*rf island smells! Oh no, whatever will we do?

I think it comes as a shock to some people that We. Don't. Care.

Are they picking a fight or disagreeing with you?

That’s a genuine question! I don’t recall seeing your user name (though I may have done - so many users on here), so I don’t have a feel one way or the other. Some users do struggle with being disagreed with, and experience it as hostility, when it’s simply not agreeing and putting forward another perspective.

On this board, most posters have spent a long time getting to grips with the issues we discuss and are very knowledgeable. There’s also a real pattern of ploppers showing up and spouting ill-informed or self-serving crap we’ve exposed as bullshit years ago, so patience sometimes wears thin.

If you’re genuinely open and up for a good faith discussion, willing to listen and consider other viewpoints and evidence, you won’t be unwelcome here.

Should also have said that passions can run high, because what we’re discussing is matters of extreme importance, like the safeguarding of children and women’s safety and rights.

The discussion can be robust but it is usually fair.

We've been told recently that the 'rest of the world' doesn't think like us here on terf island.

Again, it's not true

Even TW who get surgery do so because they think women have female bodies.

There's no one belief for TRA, otherwise we wouldn't have the ridiculous back and forth when some say they have changed sex; have always been female; its about gender, not sex; my brain and left knee are female, therefore on balance I must be a lady; sex is complicated therefore let's ignore it.

Does anyone remember when they said that the GRC panel was humiliating because they have to prove they pass and use women spaces? Turns out it just sending in proof of using Ms as a title and a diagnosis.

They lie, they say anything to justify what they want to do. Why would a doctor tell them to use the women public toilet? How would that conversation go? Even if true, ehy would they assume a doctor knows the law better than the SC?

If they believed that they are women, wouldn't they be more confused than angry when women don't agree?

We were told the rest of the world is just totes chillaxed about sex n gender.
That it's just the UK embarrassing itself on the world stage by making a big deal of the whole thing.

Ooh that reminds me, that poster still hasn't provided the evidence to back up his statement that the entire rest of the world isn't hung up about sex n gender.
Hopefully he'll come through with the data soon. Probably taking some time to gather it because there's a whole lot of countries out there!

He can start with Afghanistan. They seem chill about sex n gender.

Why 'obviously'?

I've never thought men can be women so why do you think me being on this forum 'too much' has I don't know, affected me somewhat? I was never 'woke' as they say.

And patriarchy is the reason they are believed above the women who say no, because they are men. That's just one effect of patriarchy.

Given I know I am not remotely far right and nothing I do in life follows that logic makes it actually funny.

I find the immature and undeveloped arguments telling too. If it was a serious scientific thing which had legal credibility we'd have better than 'anyone who says they are a woman is a woman' in answer to 'what is a woman'. Anyone coming up with this level of argument either lacks the ability to argue any better or they know damn well its a pseudo religious statement. When its done by people in court or argued by lawyers in court it looks and sounds even more absurd. It begs a few questions about capacity to consent or whether the NHS is being used a tool for religious ferver.

The other thing is that men do not like women who demonstrate they are smarter than them. They hate it. They are women who don't know their place.

I just think the whole movement is a left wing version of incelism at this point - it mirrors the right but the behaviour is exactly the same. Its coercive and its often abusive. The gaslighting is off the scale.

We are supposed to be good little girls and play along. We are supposed to enable like the females in their life who fawn over them. In reality when they are doing this, most of us want to be as far away from them as we can because we recognise the pattern.

Then when it comes to kids and parents questioning we are supposed to not challenge the bunkem and to turn a blind eye to harms. When it comes down to it, transition is always going to be a let down because ultimately no one believes it and at best they merely are overly polite.

The only way around this is to stealth and that in itself is troubling - because its very much legally grey and removes the ability of women to consent and thats the point.

With regards to how its just Terf Island who don't put up with the bullshit - I think this reflects cultural attitudes to challenging authority and public participation in other countries. Our political system itself is adversal rather than cooperative and in some respects this protects atttitudes to 'upsetting the apple cart'. Northern Europeans in particular sometimes surprise me in how much they are grounded in 'polite society' - and this is also reflected in patterns of migration to the US with particular states being known as 'nice' which comes from this cultural background. It just means we are more prepared to complain and stand up for ourselves. It doesn't mean other countries are more ok with it. And of course in some countries its illegal to complain which of course is going to affect public debate. And this leads to it being a shock for some overseas based men (I note how we've seen numerous ploppers lie about their location until they drop obvious clangers that give it away).

The other thing thats different here is its become less taboo for the women in the family dynamics to tell their own story which tells such a different story. This lays it particularly bare - indeed so many here have first hand experience and very much have been on the recieving end of toxic behaviour. Or we don't want anyone else to be sacrificed to unproven quackery - we see the immaturity and the naviety due to our life experience and learning life lessons that not everyone is a good actor. We don't take things at face value.

I have no doubt that this thread will go a certain direction as the UK goes into the evening... The predictability and the clone like narratives never fail to disappoint.

You said

Men who say they are women and then also say 'I don't like men in women's spaces'.
They totally understand that the men that are in women's spaces, are them, right?

YOU don't believe that men can be women. But they do.

You also said THEY are the patriarchy. No individual man is the patrichary