Brilliant article on Epstein by Helen Rumbelow in the Times TW Distressing content

[Shockhorror22]

I studied the latest Epstein files. As a woman, this is what I felt

www.thetimes.com/article/3c43b881-0f36-43bf-a32b-66fcba2b44ac?shareToken=b062e64ca800a9fb4a31da2ea933ee14

I also don't think it will work eithet. Especially because the people involved are so blatant, and very confident in their wealth and power. And because there are demonstrable ways in which it hurts men too - the very obvious corruption (also the very real possibility little boys were also victimised). Plus, very few people are OK with the tape and torture of children when it's pushed in their faces.
However, I predict they will TRY. It is based on an assumption other people (by which I mean men) are either as evil as them or stupid sheep.

I think the world has shifted. Seeing all this laid out the curtain has fallen. Did you see the crowds demonstrating outside Trump tower ? The people got very angry in France in the 1700s with their corrupt leaders and look what happened there…Hopefully this will not be that drastic but will usher back in decent leaders.

@JuliettaCaeser I'm wondering, where IS the 'let them eat cake' moment?
Melania's film?

Ha yes there are definitely analogies there!

Indeed.

Very probably

I’ve had to stop reading about this issue - it fills me simultaneously with rage and despair. I look at the men around me at work, on public transport, in shops and restaurants and amongst my friends and family and wonder if they’d be capable of behaving like this too.

According to witness statements yes they very much did. They racially abused the girls as part of keeping them in line/making them feel worthless. It also probably helped them justify their behaviour.

Or, if you want to fry your brain completely check out some of the comments on Adult Works (actually don't really don't). Lots of men cheerfully reviewing women like meat, complaining that they didn't seem that enthusiastic or appeared strung out on drugs. Or read some of the stories about American soldiers in Vietnam and how they talked about prostitutes there (yellow meat). Or watch the film Whistleblower (don't). Dehumanisation seems to be a big part of it, and othering women/children because of their race, religion, social class or merely the fact they were female is as well. So it's really common to see racial slurs etc. It's why I feel uncomfortable with some people online zeroing in on Epstein's use of the word "Goyim" as proof it's connected to his Jewishness. In the same way people zeroed in on the (horrific) dehumanising and racist language/abuse used by the Muslim grooming gangs. It is horrific and vile but not unique to specific groups unfortunately. It's a very common pattern of sexual abuse.

At the end of the day all those involved were making a conscious choice. There is nothing that is forcing men to act like that so in a sense wondering if it's something in all men's nature is ignoring the fact that even if men's sex drive is super powerful the men involved were still quite happy to destroy another human beings life to temporarily scratch an itch. Urgh.

In my experience many men find it easy to dehumanise and objectify women that they don’t know, and sometimes when they do.

Yes and no. Being prey never ends. What peters out is the overt leering:, "That thing walking over there may be too young to be on guard, and it's female, so let's attack it. What else does it exist for?"

A baby is never too young to be safe from predators, and will still not be safe in the geriatric ward, and in the morgue, and at the undertaker.

During the 'invisible' years, women are merely assumed to possibly have some alternative uses. to justify their insignificant existences. But, given the chance, and in the absence of anything else, they can still be used as orifices. Ask Pelicot.

Humans are a predatory species, especially the males.

I agree too.
I’m old and my view of men in general is so jaded.
From bitter experience I would never trust the majority of men and least of all any man in a position of authority.

Yes, just being a woman is often enough all on its own. But abusive men do tend to sort women/girls into in groups and out groups (often with ever changing boundaries depending on convenience and the women's behaviour.) Sarah Ferguson took her own young daughters to tea with Epstein I think. But they probably weren't in any danger of being groomed/exploited. That was for other girls who didn't matter.

I'm not explaining myself properly but it seems like for women/girls/children in general humanity is conditional?

YY I agree with you about the in and out groups and was what I was getting at when I said “women that they don’t know” more accurately that they don’t care about or have any feelings about.

Maybe so but as a convent schoolgirl we were viewed as fair game by boys from other schools in the city. There almost seemed to be a competition to see how far they could go with lewd and very offensive comments, trying to grope you on the bus etc.
If you tried complaining you were labelled a spoilsport and worse or simply disbelieved.

The weird cultural concept that "Catholic school girl"= sexy is gross and probably comes from the idea that they were less attainable or a challenge or something. And it's something that was propogated by TV shows/films/jokes made by adults as well.

Also, as I said, out group. IRS always possible to label a group of people as the outgroup of you want to do so. It's why the solution isn't a more homogeneous society.

I have often thought this lately. There's a lot to be said for shame. Especially when it leads to you actually feeling ashamed of your own behaviour after it's been pointed out to you.

We've gone from one extreme to the other. Only, on balance, I'd say that the current extreme 'anything goes, anywhere, all the time' is considerably more harmful.

I couldn't agree more.

My own DD's male school peers have earned themselves the same negative general view from her and many of her female peers.

Start assuming the worst because that's the balance of probability. Then, revise carefully and on a case by case basis, if necessary and beneficial to you.

Women and girls don't owe males of any age the benefit of the doubt. In fact, that would be statistically unwise.

In the patriarchal mind we gain our value as possessions of men. If the man matters, his possessions are treated respectfully.

And the corollary to this is that if the man doesn't matter his possessions can be stolen or treated as junk.

And if the man is actively seen as the enemy, defiling his possessions is a great way to demonstrate disrespect.

Women's bodies and lives are used as tokens for men to keep score with each other.

Similarly if a woman's male partner steps out of line, it's her who gets punished for not 'controlling' him. I've experienced this a few times.

Sarah Ferguson took her own young daughters to tea with Epstein I think. But they probably weren't in any danger of being groomed/exploited. That was for other girls who didn't matter.

Yes it’s kind of awful to see women with this same attitude. Soon Yi Previn, wife of Woody Allen is shown to think the 15 year old girl who reported Anthony Weiner for sexting with her was manipulative and humiliated him.

This. Wear a wedding ring at all times, especially if not married, especially if still very young.
And find a way to disguise any 'inflammatory' uniform, if possible. (Better to be a nun or a hijab wearer, than a schoolgirl, or a nurse. )

As far as I can remember, didn't a couple have a bunch of adopted children, one of whom told mummy that daddy/stepdaddy did things to her in the attic. So, the child was pretty much locked up for life, to treat her mental illness, for saying such a thing.

Later, another one of the adopted daughters became married to daddy/stepdaddy, and it was ok because it was not really a relative, and it was a pure and innocent love story between a barely legal girl and an elderly man/stepdaddy.

Nobody seems to have joined the dots and wondered if the marriage of the second daughter/ stepdaughter to daddy/ stepdaddy might suggest that the first daughter was not lying, about the man, and should never have been locked up for telling the truth about his activities with her in the attic

Old men, or their ex- child -brides, may tend to have personal reasons to convince themselves there is nothing amiss with whoever wants whatever contact with underage girls.

"least of all any man in a position of authority" Exactly. All power corrupts, etc.