Brilliant article on Epstein by Helen Rumbelow in the Times TW Distressing content

[Shockhorror22]

I studied the latest Epstein files. As a woman, this is what I felt

www.thetimes.com/article/3c43b881-0f36-43bf-a32b-66fcba2b44ac?shareToken=b062e64ca800a9fb4a31da2ea933ee14

Pussy is too cutesy a word. Men like that see us as holes.

As predicted, some disagreement with my stance on third wave feminism - although well outnumbered by the agreements. I'm not victimising the girls caught up in Epstein's evil net. I am talking about those third wave so-called feminists who strain at a gnat over small everyday acts of sexism, but don't protest the really big stuff because they are caught in the trap of e.g."be kind" or cultural sensitivity. This was just a plea for third wave feminists to see the big picture and teach our young girls to toughen up and not to pander to men.

I will add though to anyone who said I'm not a feminist - you're having a laugh: I was a feminist when most of Mumsnet were in nappies.

I don’t think hatred is too strong a term. There is certainly no respect or equality in their treatment of women. There is contempt for all women, even the ones who submit and those who pander to their egos, witness how Epstein mocked Fergie in one of his emails. I think that contempt walks hand-in-hand with hatred and easily switches over if they come up against a woman who challenges them. Epstein’s comments about the older woman who wouldn’t put up with his bullshit are hateful….. literally full of hate. From that article: “wrinkly old hag, just because she is rich she thinks she can talk down to everyone. Everyone knows her husband is fing young russians… nasty c… bags of cottage cheese in her pants.” That is hate.

Single sex schools have a lot to commend them. Being a pubertal or teenage girl is challeging enough without having to conetnd with all of that sort of stuff at school, as well.

I think it is probably sensible to be aware that males are, generally, wired differently to females - and take that into account ( and that includes, of course, the men who 'identify as' women).

I've had what I thought were good male friends who it later it turned out would have been open to a sexual relationship if I'd given the signal.. This used to disappoint me when I was young, but now I understand that men are far more led by their sex drive than women tend to be - and are far more opportunistic in pursuit of that. Even the really nice guys.

What strikes me is the carelessness of the emails and messages. These men were so sure of their audience, they didn't care how incriminating their words were.

Plus, and maybe this accounts for it, WHY are the names of the men redacted??

On whose authority??

Maybe there's more chance of getting a conviction down the line on names that have been redacted. Unredacted names could claim, "It's been taken out of context, and I've been plastered all over the world's media. I can't get a fair trial!"

I dunno, Maybe.

I am talking about those third wave so-called feminists who strain at a gnat over small everyday acts of sexism, but don't protest the really big stuff because they are caught in the trap of e.g."be kind" or cultural sensitivity. This was just a plea for third wave feminists to see the big picture and teach our young girls to toughen up and not to pander to men.

What's the first rule of misogyny?🤔

I wish I had your optimism.

Unfortunately I doubt any powerful billionaire friends of Epstein will face justice in law. Too many powerful men in powerful places. So I'd like to see all the men's names shown in full. They'll never see the inside of a court room, nevermind a jail.

Their names should be revealed. If their reputations suffer, it is the direct result of them being rapists, paedophiles or apologists. They should not be allowed to hide behind the law! Or wee black boxes.

I'm not optimistic at all, @TooBigForMyBoots , just hoping for a straw in the wind, I expect things will turn out as you say. Effectively, it would be asking the US judiciary to take these men down, and that seems an unlikely, and big ask.

Indeed and much of what their criticism of "evil" women appear to be pure projection, its very telling. I am not sure I will ever trust of look at men again.

Reading this article made me think a lot about my past, and the years of teen/20s constant sexual assault, starting around 14. It was 'normal' in the old days. You knew not to say anything.

Then this morning in bed, I read two things on my iPhone news. One about a girl, Emily Doherty, who'd escaped being abducted and murdered by the Ipswich serial killer by cleverly evading him, and had reported it to the police and been ignored - she said they treated her like a 'silly little girl'. This was in 1999. I knew exactly how she had been ignored.

Next up in today's news, 27 years later, Trump dripping with contempt and misogyny over the CNN reporter, Kaitlin Collins, for 'not smiling'. Surrounded by his court of sycophants, bullying this journalist.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/03/us/politics/kaitlan-collins-smile-trump.html?unlocked_article_code=1.KVA.kOOj.hj-FkKZYRLNL&smid=url-share

Not all men are bad, but I think even the good ones can't understand.

I completely relate to this.^^

Me too. The constant leering and staring when you are attractive and young. I really don’t miss it - because it definitely ends. It’s all about youth for these men.

I agree in the sense that Victoria's Secret culture is not empowering. And women were sold a lie that it was. Or that escorting is just meeting men for dinner or something. There's a lot of cutesification of the real world.

But, also I don't think third wave feminism is the main culprit in what happened. I don't think the men involved really cared at all about what women/feminists thought or about individual consent. And a lot of the girls trafficked were already very vulnerable (as well as children) so regardless of social attitudes to all that stuff anyway, they would not have had much chance. You can't expect a 14 year old to know what a 30 year old knows. Regardless of whether they are brought up Christian or Muslim or Libfem or Radfem. That's why men prey on children those ages (in conservative cultures as well as liberal societies).

I think in the backlash to me too there was also some very clever reframing going on.
There were quite a lot of frankly sleazy men in their 30s and 40s with platforms in the media or social media going "of course sexual assault is bad. But with all this talk of male violence... I just worry about the young men. Young men are really getting demonised here.... I think we should back of a bit or young men's self esteem will never recover...we don't want to demonise natural male.sexuality" They didn't give a damn about "young men" or their problems. It was a way to distract from their or their friends bad behaviour.
And young men (actually men of all ages) were being told that they were being demonised in echo chambers and social media algorithms.

Bit of a psyop basically. Look forward to certain people trying to roll out the argument that it's a witch hunt against all men as soon as they think they can get away with it...

They can’t though because there is hard evidence. With me too it was one persons word against another. Here it is all there in black and white.

It’s shifted my thinking. I (and pretty much everyone I know certainly the women) are literally angelic in our behaviour over our lifetimes compared to these men.

Next time a woman is criticised in the press for having too many boyfriends/ doing an unwelcome dance at a wedding the response should be REALLY look at what the men are doing!

Totally agree @JuliettaCaeser I feel like we can all just totally slack off now, guilt free. Oh I'm not out there abusing women and children at every opportunity, turns out that means I'm basically a saint (although probably lots of saints were doing that too given they're mostly male - too far?!). We all thought we had to work harder, do better and never complain in order to prove ourselves. In fact, simply not being abusive pieces of shit puts us above a significant proportion of the population. What a world.

Late with this reply, but the first two scenarios have no excuses. Women, to retain any self-respect, have to stand up to the obviously horrific male behaviour - which means overcoming all that socialisation around pandering to men. In the case of trans, women can claim to 'be kind'. No need to have to be brave or determined, just go with the flow.

Did the taxi drivers and fast food workers in Rotherham etc talk about their victims like that? No one’s going to release 3m pages about them but I wonder if it was similar?

It’s the universality that’s disturbing - professors and billionaires should “know better”’but maybe they’re just the same in the appropriate circumstances.

I think what @flyingbuttress43 is saying (and correct me if I am wrong) is not blaming 3rd wave feminists for what has gone on regarding trans, but pointing out that what they have done has not helped to stop it.

It's the moral difference between stealing something yourself, and seeing the theft and not telling the shopkeeper.

There are many reasons why well-intentioned young women have fallen into the performative idiocy of wearing she/her name badges, many related to female socialisation, the ongoing male domination of society, the desire to avoid standing out from the crowd and making yourself a target. In that sense it's not their fault, but I wish they'd wake up and smell the roses.

One of my DC is like this. Intelligent, good-hearted and yet, despite my best efforts, completely clueless about the wider implications of the trans movement. The propaganda these young people have been fed is widespread, clever, and deeply manipulative (be kind, it's about human rights, women's rights and trans rights are the same thing, right side of history, prevent trans suicides, it's like gay rights). It's sidetracked many young people from more useful forms of political action. I just wish they'd fully engage their critical faculties, but that requires awareness, courage, independent thought and a degree of humility.

But Mum is a dinosaur who hates trans people, so I won't listen to her.

They really do hate us don't they? This is a cabal of impossibly rich powerful men, but I do wonder if all men (or most of them) would be like this if they could get away with it.

That’s the sadness. If men have no breaks on their behaviour (fear of the law/religion/ no limit financially/shame) this is what they choose to do? Poorer men do the same but can only afford to do so online grok / porn etc rather than in person on an island.

I'm not going to muse too far down the route, but I well recall my religious grandmother saying that the concept of 'shame' can be a 'good' thing in a civilised society, because it provides a check on behaviour that ought to be checked.

Now, obviously, religious shame has led to diabolical outcomes- girls being shunned for extra marital sex comes to mind. But i have had cause to think of her words in a variety of settings recently.

Yes. They did. They used offensive dehumanising and graphic language to refer to those girls and young women.