is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

[weegielass]

Its live today on the scottish tribunals website and lasting for three days. Easy to join and good audio quality. I think that's marion on screen in the background. She seemed rather amused at the judge trying to understand the definitions.

The Scottish ministers are arguing it does, and if it doesn't it's a breach of international human rights law as it would lead to permanent solitary confinement for post op transsexuals

A post op transsexual on minor offences is clearly no threat to other women

Once more, you are stating things as facts that are not true, and are contrary to the evidence in this case.

Yup. There are enough men claiming to be trans in the women's estate already. The obvious solution is to place them in a separate wing in the men's estate.

That's debatable.

They are men. And as I mentioned, as a group they have a very high risk of sex offending. So they won’t be on their own. There will be other such men.

Let's hear their oral submissions; but the purpose of this case is to find out if they're right or not.

I don't think it's reasonable to say that the only alternative to putting men in women's prisons is "permanent solitary confinement". I don't think the SPS will say that, and I don't think the judge would believe them if they did.

They clearly are true. A post op transsexual is no more a risk than any other woman.

A post op transsexual on minor offences is clearly no threat to other women

WOW tell me you're a man, why don't you? They are by their very presence causing coercive control abuse and emotional abuse of the other women. I suspect women who've experienced these types of abuse previously are higher in prison.

It's a human rights abuse.

I'm sure suitable accommodation can be found. Apparently there are 6 TIMs in the prison estate so they can all be housed together. No need for solitary confinement.

“Transsexual women are women, not men” - in your view. Many share that view, many do not.

A woman who does not share that belief will see and fear a male criminal in a space that she cannot escape from. A decent unbiased human being would surely feel as much sympathy for her as for the trans woman who is condemned in your account to a lonely imprisonment.

Repeating things doesn't make them more or less true. The sworn affidavits in this case contradict what you're saying. The judge can accept them, or not.

If we actually had any post-op TIMs in prison, I dare say we'd have heard about it by now. Nevertheless, women are not human shields.

I shall now decline to engage with the repetitive interruptions.

Post op transsexuals would not be safe in confinement with a sex offender. You'd need separate wings. Given how few genuine transsexuals there are in prison compared to men who pretend they have a trans identity (fuck self ID).

I’m afraid the Supreme Court judgement states that transwomen are men. Reality has reasserted itself.

A post-op man is still a man.
The presence of a man in what is supposed to be a single-sex space for women breaches the safety, privacy and dignity of all of the women.
HTH.

Exactly.

My neighbour has prostate cancer - he's completely impotent because of his prostate removal and oestrogen therapy. He's still as creepy as he ever was despite this, which is how I know of his current sexual predicament, because he spends any time he can get with me telling me all about it. You've all been there, you know how it goes. He may not be capable of sexual assault at the moment but I still don't want to pass him on the street and I wouldn't want to be locked up in a prison cell with him for 23 hours a day every day.

A female who takes testosterone and had her breasts removed is a higher risk due to the impact of testosterone.

A man who identifies as trans is over 250 times more likely to commit sex offences than women, and castrated sex offenders have been shown to commit sex offences with more violence.

Given how few genuine transsexuals there are in prison

Another reason for a bright-line rule being legal is that it avoids the challenges of having to decide what, if anything, a "genunine" transsexual is, who might be one, and who is a fraudulent transsexual.

I note that you're conflating being a "true" transsexual with not being a danger to women. I suspect that you may feel that a "false" transsexual can be exactly defined as "one who is a danger to women". Which is the "no true scotsman" argument re-packaged. It doesn't work.

If the claim they are trans then they are trans. That is how it works.

They aren’t children so will be fine in the protected wing with paedophiles.

Wasn't their a court case that established that making castration a condition for getting a GRC was unlawful? I suspect making castration a condition for permitting a man to be jailed with women would go the same way. We'd wind back here.

Lonely tw aren't women’s problem in prisons, Guides, hospitals, the WI or anywhere else.

Take it up with the SPS.

Eta offering them 'gender affirming care' while behind bars should stop for starters.

No we don't, because they're women.

The presence of men, also renders single sex spaces for women as mixed spaces, which undermines the reason why such spaces exist in the first instance. I'm watching the proceedings right now and the lady who just finished speaking (I didn't catch her name because I've only just re-logged on) highlighted this very point.

Have Paris Green and co. even had surgery? Not that it's relevant to whether they should be in a women's prison or not because they are still men.

There's one, I forget his name but he's in a relationship with a child torturer/killer Nomi something, who was offered all the gender affirming care he wanted. Facilitated by the SPS, paid for with taxes. He got his Adam's apple shaved.

It's not possible to treat post-op transsexuals (in legal terms men without penises) differently to other men. It would be a human rights issue to say to people you can go in the facility you want but only if you lop your bits off first.

So whatever solution is for post op transwomen has to work for pre op transwomen too (edit: and of course non op transwomen, which appears to be the majority). A small transwomen only wing could be a suitable solution. Or putting them with vulnerable men who aren't a risk to them.

None of which is exactly what this case is about, this is about the legality of putting any man in women-only facilities which are discrimination permitted because of the Equality Act sex based exceptions and therefore can only be based on sex as defined in the EqA as clarified by the SC judgement in FWS's previous case.