How do navigate things with older/adult dc who are pro-trans ideology if you are not?

[Fancycrab]

Just wondering those of you who are GC and have teenagers or young adult dc who strongly support trans ideology, how do you navigate this? Do you just agree not to discuss it? Does it ever interfere with your relationship? My DD is still little but her dad, who I’m separated from is very pro trans rights and believes the whole gender ideology bollocks. I worry that he will brainwash DD into believing it too when she’s older and she’ll end up seeing me as the uncool, unprogressive one who just “doesn’t get it” 🙄

DD20 is captured. DS23 is not.
Have made a couple of comments about men in women's sports with DD and she just shrugs and changes the conversation or goes completely quiet.

Makes me seeth but I won't fall out with her over it unless she tries to preach, she's not the kind of personality to do that

I agree that's what the poster meant. My point is that it violates what a child can easily see, that this person saying they are a woman is a man. It is a safeguarding issue to suggest children deny what is real and we should not encourage children to do this. Bugger be kind, making sure children (and esp. girls) know that they are allowed to have boundaries and that they should believe what they can see.

I think this is directed at me or the sentiment I have expressed so I’d like to respond.

Im not a Trump supporter so I’m happy to correct anyone who thinks I am. I do feel discomfort, yes, about some of my bedfellows (like Trump) in the GC movement, because while I agree with them on this and benefit from their actions taken, I think they are anything but pro-women in other respects so it is a shaky alliance.

But I feel no shame in discussing the harms to women and children carried out in the name of gender ideology. I did in 2018/19 when I first peaked and worked with children in a trans-feverish environment - more fear than shame I suppose but definitely questioning myself back then.

I completely understand your anger and determination to fight male domination. I agree this is what is happening and feel the same about the fight. I just refuse to allow abusive people to rob me of my compassion and I want to conduct the fight in my way. Fine if you don’t and I don’t mind if some of you think I’m a sad brainwashed ‘be kind’ woman. I care about people and that’s part of me and how I want to live my life. We can care about people by standing up and speaking uncomfortable truths. I don’t want to become aggressive. There’s nothing wrong with that.

I agree with you. It’s a fine line to tread, and I think it’s very easy for that poster to preach about having a zero acceptance approach & to seemingly suggest being disrespectful to their faces, when I highly doubt she’s ever had a meaningful encounter with a trans person in her life. It’s easy to hate a group of people that you don’t have a human connection with. It’s the same as white supremacists who hate black people because they avoid them like the plague. It makes it easier to view them as all the same and create narratives about them being sub-human etc. All that changes the minute they form a relationship with a black person. Much harder to dehumanise someone you know, especially if they are kind to you.

I know a few trans & NB people IRL, mostly my ex’s friends. One of my good friends came out as non-binary. I’ve known her for 20 years, I’m not going to disrespect her and be mean to her just because she’s confused about who she is. That would be horrible. Part of me feels angry at her that she’s abandoning the female sex because I feel it’s leaving less and less space for gender non-conforming women like myself to express ourselves without people thinking we’re bloody non-binary! Part of me feels sorry for her that she can’t just own being a woman and do it on her own terms. Part of me is judging her for allowing herself to be brainwashed by this shit. However…she’s also a kind, hilarious, loyal friend who’s been there for me through thick and thin. And if this is what makes her feel the most comfortable then who am I to judge. I use they/them & her new name. If I slip up she doesn’t care. She doesn’t need to know what I think of GI, she just needs to know what I think of her. I know it’s a bit different with a trans woman. It’s difficult because I do believe a very small proportion of trans people have truly suffered from severe gender dysphoria since toddler-hood and I do believe transitioning (as adults) is right for them. Eg. The YouTuber Blaire White. But they need to get their penises removed. I don’t care how expensive/difficult/dangerous it is. If you want to go in a women’s changing room you cannot have a penis. Also if your gender dysphoria is THAT bad you would think you’d stop at nothing to get rid of it. Unfortunately the other 90% of trans women IMO are a mix of AGPs, confused young gay boys, autistic men, and men who are just confused.

Having your penis removed does not make you a woman, however, and you are still unwelcome and unwanted in women's spaces. Women are not just people without a penis.

How do you navigate other things you may not agree on ? Politics? Drug use?

You talk calmly abd listen to each other's viewpoints respectfully. If you can't do that you avoid the topic

Agree with screaming. The majority of kids aren’t interested in GI it’s more for the marginalised teens. Neither of mine or any of their friends or show any interest frankly. They do want single sex spaces though. The majority call this group “the they / thems” with a slight eyeroll.

But you cannot live this way in a family. All you will do is destroy your relationships.

That kind of thing is part of what has allowed this to become so entrenched. People tear into then cut off even their family, not to mention friends, who don't toe the trans line. And then those people are completely demonised.

It's important for society that we can have relationships with people we have strong differences with.

OP, what would your rection be if your ex was taking your child to white pride marches?

I would hope her reaction would be anger, concern and more.

Would you be as gentle and conceding as you seem to feel you need to be in this context - or would you say outright to your daughter that you disapprove fundamentally of this, that you regret she is being taken to these events, and that you think these marches are deplorable? Because that’s how I see taking a child on trans pride marches - only involving hatred of women, and male supremacy, rather than ethnic supremacy.

Personally, I wouldn't try this analogy with a relative who has even the smallest relationship with LGBTQ people. The power dynamics are incredibly messed up here. In what world do the pride/trans people map as the "White Pride" marchers in this argument?

Was it after the trans countries started to separate non-trans people into camps, then deport and execute them?

Was it after the trans countries enacted generations of laws that removed non-trans people from society and its services?

Was it after the trans gangs tortured and killed the loudest non-trans people fighting for the same rights as trans people?

Was it after the gangs of trans people burned trans imagery on people's properties?

Yes it is important we have relationships with people we disagree with. It’s not important to have relationships with race supremacists, conspiracy theorists or people who think women can have a penis. They can’t. It’s as idiotic as being friends with someone who insists 2+2 =giraffe.

its giving this idea space to exist that’s the problem. Don’t.

I feel extremely strongly about it too but I’m not going to cut off my DS and not have a relationship with him. He didn’t want to see me for a bit because he was so angry about my GC views, but changed his mind and conceded we didn’t have to agree on it. If I’d been hardline and oppositional about it that might not have happened. He’s young, having a bit of an identity crisis and his brain has some maturing still to do - it’s possible he’ll come through it and gain new perspectives, or be peaked by a RL situation as many are. And it’s possible he won’t, but I’m his mum and want to be there for him either way if I can.

I also have a family member who’s a TIF and has completely cut off from me. I wasn’t abusive, rude or mocking about anything, I just asked if a mastectomy was the best idea and calmly said I wouldn’t be requiring my young DC to mis-sex anyone (including the TM’s TW partner) as I felt that was unfair on them. We had an email exchange where I explained why and asked simple questions like if you can self-ID sex why doesn’t that apply to ethnicity and age which actually are a spectrum. She couldn’t answer. She also spouted a lot of misinformed stuff such as “taking hormones makes you like an intersex person”. Now I am OK with this relative having no contact with me but I didn’t initiate it and one reason for that is that these are often vulnerable people like my relative (ND, history of trauma) who are seeking a way to feel better about themselves and ultimately transitioning rarely achieves that, plus it tends to cause more harm. But they cut out anyone who doesn’t agree and surround themselves with GI believers. I think it’s useful to know there’s a GC person somewhere in your life if you ever need someone to turn to, if you do come to the point of detransitioning or questioning the whole shebang.

Finally I’m never 100% fixed in my views. I think I’m right about this based on evidence, reason and logic and a lot of thought and debate, but if genuine evidence came along to change my mind I hope I’d be open to it.

In what world do the pride/trans people map as the "White Pride" marchers in this argument?

Well...

(I'm sure the images will be along shortly).

Those are a couple signs in a protest.

How many non-trans people have been systematically un-personed and killed by a majority-trans culture? Ever? At any time like say white supremacist cultures?

Those are a couple signs in a protest.

I can find you many many more very disturbing photographs and posts online. How many would you like?

I think the parallel being drawn is that trans activism is profoundly unaccepting of different opinions and is, in it's own way, an exclusionist and very much a male supremacist movement.

Lots and lots of male supremacist cultures un-person women, kill women with impunity.

Obviously there are differences, but there are similarities, too.

There is no parallel in comparing a group that has been subject to historic hate and violence from socially dominant groups vocally (and with provocative signs) challenging the maligning efforts of socially dominant groups.

You believe trans people are some kind of conspiracy created by male supremacists. This belief does no one but men any favours.

If anyone on this thread hasn't come across onepostwonder before, I strongly recommend looking back at their previous posts on other threads.

There is no parallel in comparing a group that has been subject to historic hate and violence from socially dominant groups vocally (and with provocative signs) challenging the maligning efforts of socially dominant groups.

Surely you're talking about women, there - when you talk about "groups subject to hate and violence from socially dominant groups" - aren't you?

I genuinely don't think your point is as strong as you think it is.

You believe..

I don't find it helpful when people tell me what I believe. They're usually posting a straw man about what I think, so they can attack it. I don't see anything different happening here.

Hi. I'm onepostwonder. I am a trans woman. Other than my first post, i have been here trying to understand gender critical people by sharing experiences from my more than 40 years as a trans child and adult.

Thankfully ours know the difference between gender and sex. We all agree it’s absolutely fine to change names, wear different clothes, even have surgery but you can’t change chromosomes. We don’t treat trans relative with anything but respect but equally dd and her team refused to play a team with a trans player

Surely you're talking about women, there

I am learning why you could only believe this, but no. Trans people; both men and women have been and continue to be mocked, removed and killed by non-trans men and women.

The general cultural support for eradication of trans people has been diminishing of late. It seems this disturbs the happiness of gender critical people to no end and are trying to remove any official public accommodation made to trans people. White supremacists try to remove any official public accommodation made to people of colour. Sadly they are succeeding in the US and may arrive here through Reform.

Trans people (men and women) do not control society. Trans people are not a conspiracy of men.

I am learning why you could only believe this, but no. Trans people;

I was making the point that what you assume can only apply to trans identifying people applies to women too.

The general cultural support for eradication of trans people has been diminishing of late.

That's not my perception. My perception is that more and more people are waking up to the profoundly misgynistic underpinnings of TWAW, and are saying 'no, thanks'.

Trans people (men and women) do not control society.

In many ways they have done, for the last ten or fifteen years, and still do.

I was making the point that what you assume can only apply to trans identifying people applies to women too.

Oh, believe me when I say I half guessed you would intentionally misread the statement as referring to misogyny. It's part of the automatic assumption that bad faith will be preserved at any cost.

In many ways they have done, for the last ten or fifteen years, and still do.

Trans people absolutely do not control society. Even if it were true, the 'many ways' are selective, contextually minor in comparison with all the other concerns of the world and do not represent societal level dominance of any cultural value.

It wasn’t bad faith; I was merely pointing out that your sauce for the goose is my sauce for the gander.

Nobody is suggesting trans identifying people control interest rates or the price of bread, but activists have very much had their boots on the necks of legislators and policy makers across the globe in recent years. Through the hard work of a lot of women those boots are being gradually removed.

Dog forbid a trans person be able to live a life free of terror, scorn and threats due to laws and programs introduced 10 years ago.

Every interest group has their boots on legislators necks. From what I've noticed, there seems to be more men working to remove boots than women.

In answer to the original question, I’ve had a few discussions with ds but he doesn’t really ‘get it’ from a female perspective.

However, also have a family member who has become trans but not had any conversations with them (as don’t live locally). I’m actually curious as to why they have changed their name, image etc, as they seemed to have gone from a hundred percent straight, to trans overnight.