How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

I sat through a half hour session for a women's outdoor group last year.

The stated aims of the group were to help women, especially minority women, get into outdoor adventure and to try and talk about and over come the barriers women uniquely face.

The talk was about equipment design and use, coaching methods and how this often relates to women's physical size and strength compared to men, attitudes of men being macho and how this is off putting, attitudes of men to women in terms of sexualisation, biological barriers in terms of periods, women's safety, menopause, recovery after childbirth, talk about how women felt it hard to talk about someone of these very personal health issues relating to their bodies and sport in front of men, access to toilets when doing outdoor adventure, childcare, female specific health in terms of aging, bone strength etc religious considerations... Most of the talk focused on biology.

Then at the end they opened up to questions.

There were two men giggling like children throughout and I knew what was coming

"Can we join as transwomen?"

It was totally inappropriate and undermined everything we'd just listened to in the last half hour and the stated aims and purposes of the group.

Worse still guess what the talk prior to the women's one was? One about LGBT access to outdoor sports. So there WAS provision for transwomen but it was all about destroying the stated goals of the women's group in order to get validation.

This isn't about erasing transwomen. This isn't about attacking transwomen. This is about the unique bodily experiences and needs of females and a need to have a space to do this away from males. It's wholly inappropriate for males to go "well my estrogen induced body does this". It's about females talking about their shared experiences relating to their bodies. Experiences that even the transwomen on this thread admit they don't share - they say they have a different experience of 'menopause'. The point is the shared female experience not talking about how transwomen experience this differently.

The LGBT group for similar purposes is over there
--->

As I say it's not like transwomen were not being effectively provided for and represented. It was that the transwomen wanted to take over the women's group and render it pointless for many of the women who might have wanted to otherwise participate. Every minute talking about transwomen is a minute taken away from the women's experiences. And is of fuck all value to any of the women present. It's literally talking at women not women talking with women about shared experiences.

This is what gets to me - it's the inappropriateness and the selfishness where women lose out every time, even when there is a clear legitimate and perfectly fair, biologically related stated aim to have a women's only space whilst transwomen ARE catered for. You can't say transwomen were being excluded - the group just wasn't appropriate for transwomen under the stated aims.

This wasn't anti-trans in anyway.

The two transwomen wanging on, on this thread are utterly guilty of this same shit.

Selfish, navel, gazing me me me which has the singular objective of destroying the ability of women to talk about women's issues with women on women's terms. Women are not allowed to talk about themselves whilst transwomen ONLY talk about themselves and what they want.

The difference is stark.

It's wholly inappropriate, deeply misogynistic and grossly offensive.

Yet somehow we are still 'the bad guys'.

Except we really really aren't.

The men do all the work of showing up who really hates who.

You asked for an example of a transwoman with socio-dynamic power.

Less than one percent of women are trans. So how did trans women forcibly take over women?

See my last post.

It only takes ONE transwoman to destroy the purposes and aims of a women's only space or group through thoughtless inconsiderate selfish behaviour for a large number of women.

Ah, the bits men see. The objective observers and definers of women.

Aaaaah they old transmen are wheeled out when it suits to use women once again.

Transmen are trying to avoid feminity and their female bodies. The effect is still to remove power from actual women...

I believe she is offended that a member of her friend group has declared themselves to be trans. She seems interested in navigating her offence within the group and with the other individual, as a gendered person within the group. But maybe not interpersonally, depending on how negotiations go.

Based on what I've read about coming out stories, I said that it is very unlikely both she and the newly out trans person will be included in the group for too long after this, together, as her belief seems very rigid and she seems unlikely to adapt or accept any support for the trans person. The group will have to decide on who to support and who to cast off.

I've read all sorts of midlife coming out stories. Some I can understand, some I cannot understand but for the most part I believe them to be valid. I don't know how the person is demanding to be treated as female. Ultimately the group's acceptance level and tolerance for change will be the driver for group composition going forward.

All female people have a body formed around the production of large gametes though, regardless of whether they have, will or are producing those large gametes. The lack of menstruation means that even those female people will something in common. All have the very high likelihood that they had medical advice and likely medical investigation about why.

No male person will be having any investigations as to why they are not menstruating.

Please stop leveraging female people's medical conditions for expecting anyone use female language for you as a male person.

Oh, and by the way, just in case you thought that I respected your claim to be women, I don't.

For a start, you're a man, mansplaining to a bunch of women what being a woman is all about. Perhaps you don't understand how typically male that is. But if you start reading more, thinking more, and typing less, eventually you might.

I suppose, in another way, an example of patriarchy is men assuming that there is nothing they can't do in this world, and nothing they can't be, and nowhere they can't go. And there's you, proving the point, that, as a man, you too think you can do "woman", be a woman, and go in places provided for women. I'm waiting to hear you're more of a woman - than many of the women contributing here. You're a man who even womans better then women do, I suspect you think.

Then there are your regressive stereotypes about why you're a woman: your body shape, the hormones you've taken, how you're taller or not taller than your mother (or was that the other man, I'm sorry.) It's such a man's view of what being a woman is. If you want to know what being a woman is, you only have to shut up and read. There are plenty of women here who will tell you. Jesus - they are telling you - continually. But you have to listen. Really listen.

Did you ever read the His Dark Materials books? You are like the usurper bear king Iofur Raknison, who wanted to have a daemon because that's what humans have and he wanted to be human. So he dragged a little doll around with him. As his daemon.

I don't think anyone really believes it. SM seems to be full of TW just trying to convince each other.

FourSevenTwo asked How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

I believe this thread is proof of how the ‘T’ would try to dominate the group.

When we talk about transwomen having 'menopause', or 'a lack of periods', or not giving birth to children, or 'being mothers' etc...

All transwomen have a uniquely transwomen only experience of each of these.

They do not share this experience with any woman. Not one.

If they want to talk about shared experiences they can crack on. But the people they need to talk about their shared experiences are ALL male.

Likewise all women who have biologically related issues only share these experiences with other females. Whether that be being childless or being born without a womb or whatever. Every single one.

All we want is to be able to talk about shared issues with women whom we share those experiences with.

A woman who has the female experience of infertility is unlikely to which to talk about infertility with a woman with six kids. It would be inappropriate and insensitive of the woman with six kids to join a women's group dedicated to infertility.

Likewise a man who has had his balls and penis lobed off by his own free choice perhaps isn't appropriate to be expecting to be allowed to join a women's group dedicated to infertility... And yet they do. Without a drop of self reflection.

This isn't anti trans. It's anti insensitive narcissistic bastard.

It is a very good example of how discussions get dominated by a discussion on how 'female' male people really are....

This thread is also a live demonstration of the tactics that male people use to wheedle access to female single sex provisions. We have had many of the tactics used live here on this thread.

Any attempt to refute any of these beliefs will be labeled as "tactics that male people use to wheedle access to female single sex provisions." The gender critical meta has overshadowed the original topic. I apologise for attempting to introduce heretical experiences as a counter to statements made.

The T absolutely try to dominate here as it is typicale male behaviour.
You are not the same as women - or you wouldnt have transitioned!!!!!! just accept it

As an aside - im going to ignore the interrupt- a- ron (where's that gif/meme? Where is Boiled?) cos im running out of patience with this shite

If a woman's group is invaded by a single male it ALWAYS becomes dominated by that single male because at least one of the women will alter her behaviour in the presence of that man - regardless of whether they are supportive gender identity or not. Even if they are supportive they over compensate to make they male feel included. If they don't believe gender identity they will self exclude, distance or hold back. But one way or another the dynamics of the group changes merely by the presence of the male.

Males can never truly be included as a result. It's pointless and a lie to suggest otherwise.

Just don't enter the spaces.

Respect why they were created.

Eg NOT FOR YOU or FOR THE BENEFIT of you.

Women can't mansplain.

Also everyone no matter whether they're a man or a woman can do and be whatever they want if they put the work in to get there. That's a core part of feminism.

I'm no more of a woman than anyone else here. You define your womanhood how you choose. It's not for me to tell you who you are, I get to choose how I live and I live alone. You should try it sometimes.

Again, I dont think gender stereotypes make me a woman. I haven't talked about my height either.

You're right. Women can't mansplain.

Transwomen can cos they are men.

I've been in the spaces a very long time. I belong in the spaces now. I will continue to be in the spaces until I die.

Transsexual women are women.

Same. I've been in loads of women's spaces, no one cares or really even notices.

Because you don't respect women.

The end.

We know you don't respect women. You've made the point in every single post you've made on this thread without exception.

This is your belief. It has no power to rewrite my life.