How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

Is this a D&D campaign? Do you not just generally use your characters name? I have had some humdingers for names in campaigns and games that are purely fantasy. If I liked them all as people I would just use the name if I absolutely had to but overall would avoid a direct address. To be honest when in a group of people unless trying to gain that persons attention how often do people use names really.

I suppose I'm trying to put the ball on his side.
I'm not insisting on using the form which brings him discomfort, so if he insists on expecting me to use the option which would bring me discomfort, it's him who is too inflexible, if you see what I mean.

Maybe it doesn't work like that.

(Actually, with a FTM acquaintance elsewhere it kind of worked, they knows I'm not on board and didn't throw a strop about it. I'm using the limited avoidance language there. It might prevent developing a deeper connection, but we can coexist ok.)

Ok, time for the avoidance language for now. Option 1 would become relevant if we both wanted to look for a solution which would enable keeping in touch more - and if it would be 121 chat, it would probably be switching to English, to be able to use "you" grammar without the extra complications.

He is putting you in a position where you are already planning on torturing syntax and wrangling language to refer to him. That's not what friends do.

One slip and you will be ostracised anyway.

I’d agree that it depends on his behaviour. If finding his trueself requires putting unrealistic expectations on others eg everyone must be required to see him as he sees himself and/ or centering his own needs above others then it’s going to be difficult. Not all trans people are like this but to start with I’d probably just watch from the sidelines and see where it goes.

From experience, it is not necessarily just the interactions with this man which will become difficult. It is the interactions you have with other female group members, about this man.("Be Kind" is disgustingly insidious, totally taking advantage of female socialisation).

I am like you - I don't believe, but if I was forced to I'd say I was agender. I've had friends insist I must be non binary. It is very hard for some people to mentally step outside the restrictive language of gender ideology.

I'd be cautious, limit interaction with (and about) the dude until I saw how it was playing out. He might actually be totally reasonable. Many trans people are reasonable, sadly the media just loves the misogynist ones.

If he's not reasonable it will start to show. Again, from experience, he might start to rage against anything that isn't gushing, public affirmation. He might overstep personal boundaries and he might even beg for money.

I think you'll soon find out whether the group survives or remains worth attending.

That’s a tough one.

I think if I valued the friendship group
I would minimise my interaction with him, choose language carefully as I can when I have to (ie asking how everyone’s weekend was, not just his but then ‘hearting’ his response etc) and seeing how the rest of the group were playing it.

Are you a native speaker of this language or is it your second language (your English is perfect, so I thought I'd ask)?

If this is your second language I think you have some leeway to use his new name but not the whole syntax. Our university department dropped pronouns because it was an unfair barrier to ESL students, just too hard to be expected to use they, for example, when you are already less comfortable in the language. Some people tied themselves in knots about this conflict, who has to feel uncomfortable and the consensus came down on the side of people not choosing to be in that position (so those who have ESL rather than those making a demand).

Are other people managing it consistently?

I don't think option 1 would work, he's at the initial "euphoria" stage when you'd burst his bubble.

I'd use his name, phase him out, talk to him less and less and discuss th character in the game rather than the player.

I suspect this man has already blown up the group. You’re probably not the only member who’s agonising over this, but there are probably others who will now fall over themselves to affirm this brave, stunning individual. Everybody will be watching each other. At the very least, communication will become awkward and sub-groups will form. At worst, there’ll be outright confrontation. This illustrates the damage that one man can cause.

I've been honest. But tbh my closest friends all know I'm GC and I don't make a secret of it. I avoid pronouns. I figure that if the friendship is worth anything they have to respect me not using pronouns full stop. If they demanded I use female pronouns I'd consider the friendship dead because of the emotional blackmail and bad attitude for suddenly expecting me to change how I feel about the subject. I make it clear they are welcome and respected - the rest is up to them.

Funnily enough I was talking to a friend last night who is pretty pro-trans. He's recently had an experience meeting up with old friends including one who has transitioned. Another friend no one had seen in years turned up and didn't know and got pronouns 'wrong'. Transwoman went absolutely nuts. Poor bloke didn't even know and hadn't had any chance to adjust. My pro-trans friend thought the transwoman was seriously out of order. This is something of a shift for him - he's always been fully onboard before. Its strikes me the over reach and poor behaviour over pronouns is starting to get noticed and is pissing off even those who are supportive. I've had no less than four conversations with people on the subject since the beginning of November - three of whom don't know me well enough to have known my position - they raised the subject. On Wednesday I overheard a conversation between some people I know to be bloody left wing getting fed up with overly zealous cancel culture.

Patience with nonsense is really wearing thin to a level that is making me raise eyebrows. It's noticeable and people are talking about it more openly.

So if you do have the conversation, I'd actually try and have it around other mutual close friends who know your position. Be honest that you are struggling but still care - if he goes boom at least you aren't alone and you have a witness.

1. Leave the ball in his court. Do not raise this with him. If grammar becomes an issue let him raise it.
2. In the meantime I would use neutral / avoiding language when it's easy and male when it's not unless he corrects you. If he corrects you then either make more effort to use neutral / avoiding langauge always or use female, it's not worth fighting over in this kind of social group.
3. I would step back just a little from the group and from him.

I was (and still would be) happy to be supportive to him as a bit gender nonconforming geek with some MH issues.

He's not left that option open to you.

I would take the tactic of avoidance too.

You risk being alienated from your own social group.

Unless you know the personalities very well, and are certain your views would be accommodated to by him and others in the group.

But we all know that generally it does not go that way.

It’s really unfair that women are put in this position by men who insist women order themselves around men’s sense of entitlement.

I would call him by his preferred name and use "them/ they". I would explain to him that I felt unable to call him "she" but that I don't consider that any particular gender owns a name. Many names have swapped gender over time. I'd try to sympathise with his mental struggles but if I picked up hints he was an AGP I would be leaving him out of my friendship circle as much as possible.

I suspect that your experience with the FTM acquaintance will not be relevant here. Women are more likely to compromise and be sociable. The fact you’ve already had this “announcement” from the MTF is presumably already a bit different than before (?) and maybe an indication of how much stronger this person will feel about being affirmed. I agree with the others that you risk being rejected by the group if you don’t go with full affirmation.

The problem with this situation is that unlike the usual/historic difficulty created by religion or politics is that you can’t simply ignore it. Because the belief system is based on the cooperation (often forced) of everyone else. Eg if I don’t want to eat halal meat (due to animal welfare concerns) I can quietly choose something else, or I can listen to a friend talking about her church picnic without any other “participation”.

If it were me I would struggle because I’m a detailed focussed person and accuracy/honesty is a core value.

If I wasn’t too bothered about the group and really valued the relationship with the trans person then I’d try to speak to them to reach a compromise. But obviously realising that this would be a high stakes conversation and I might lose both the group and the friendship.

If I value the group over the person then I’d arrange my group sessions to avoid or reduce contact with the MTF friend. It’s maybe a bit sad since you used to get on well but it’s no different to any other social falling out or if someone in your group takes liberties.

Ive got a social situation with a woman I know (she only seems to speak to me when she wants something/turns up at community groups to be seen to help but actually does sweet FA) where our kids were friends so I had to grit my teeth at social situations and smile/nod along. Now are kids aren’t so close it’s easier to avoid her and it’s a flipping relief - it’s hard work having to suppress my principles. Latterly our social circles sometimes overlap and so occasionally i apply a fixed smile and suck it up but avoiding is just easier.

it’s rubbish that men put women in these situations

It is. It also happens the other way round. The first person I met who demanded to be referred to as the opposite sex was a woman. I still haven't worked out a satisfactory solution, as I referred to her as "him" from the start, not having realised that it would become an issue for me. I don't want to offend her – she's quite vulnerable – and it's really difficult to change a habit anyway. So I try to avoid third person pronouns, but that's quite a big additional cognitive load especially when other aspects of life are emotionally demanding. I wish I had been aware in advance and refused to go along with the lie (as I see it).

My dd has a 'non binary' friend and I will not use they/them pronouns. We don't have the problem of their actual name changing dependant on sex so I can get away with just using her name (now a new non gender specific name). But to be frank I just don't ask how she is very much any more. I would just stop talking about him or asking him where they went yesterday. I wouldn't be too bothered about using the feminine version of his name. I suspect his ego and people treading on eggshells around him will shortly tear your group apart anyway.

The OP can't do that - read the first post.

I’m afraid that the ‘friendship’ would likely fade away for me. Men who claim a trans identity as adults generally do so for one of 2 reasons - they’re effeminate gay men who aren’t comfortable with their homosexuality, or they’re AGP men who use those around them to help them carry out their fetish. Either way, I wouldn’t be able to go along with it so would end up backing off.

I wouldn't bother tying myself in knots to appease a bloke who thinks hes a woman. I think I would form a splinter group because I doubt I would be the only one thinking the same

I'm in the "preferred name but male form grammar" camp.

I don't see anything in the first post that precludes her doing what I said I would do.

Why are you making a massive deal out of it ? Just call them what you want? You can avoid using their name are they any less likeable now they are a tw?

That is your friend, be kind or lose that friendship.
I often don't align with my friends beliefs so we just don't talk much about them

You politely give your apologies and leave this friend group.

If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

It's right there in the OP.

Thanks for the next batch of reactions.

It's really helping me to clarify my options and position. I've realised that I was grieving the previous situation and I feel better about it now, accepting what I can and can't control here.

To answer some relevant points

Yes, it is my first language. I love the language most of the time, as it is perfect for clear communication, but it means it is quite bad for keeping things vague.

"They" isn't a neutral form here, it is still used with gendered verbs (where English says "went" we have man's form, woman's form, women's form and a group-with-at-least-one-man's form, not counting singular and plural it's form)

Games - some are D&D style, some board games. I agree that the part with playing characters is probably the least troublesome here, it's more about whether it will still be on the table or not.

AGP - that's a worrying point. I didn't consider it originally, but now when it was mentioned I can't say it would be absolutely impossible (I'm not saying it is the case though). I don't plan to get to a kind of discussion where I would find out.

Why do I care so much - for me affirming means encouraging them to feel they are accepted as woman and have some kind of right to be in women's spaces. I accept them as a human, not as a woman.

As I said, avoidance is the default for now. It will be interesting to explore how to use our language in gender-less way, and it might be useful for some potential future situations.