"A woman who is trans"

[AllThisFuss]

I've been noticing this terminology creeping in. Just thought I might highlight it, so we can keep up to date with their ever-changing attempts to control language and muddy the waters. Have you seen any in the wild?

IndiaWilloughby
‪@indiawilloughby.bsky.social‬
Not a mention of the woman who’s trans, who did nothing wrong. This ruling is in direct conflict with the Gender Recognition Act. How is this happening? It is wrong on every level, and will be used to push trans people even further out of society and into danger

Sure buddy. Sure. No one can tell you’re male….

As a non cis man happily expanding the bandwidth of what it is to be a man and living your best life using make spaces. HTH

So you’re disregarding consent. Disregarding the law. Twice over at least. And that’s ok coz it makes you feel good?

Where does it leave you?

Honest and growing and learning as a human 😍

I used to be TWAW - seemed like that lined up with my Feminist view of gender as a social construct. My younger, naive belief didn't connect the times men were sexually encrouching on me with men at the population level being a much higher actual sexual risk to women than vice versa. I hadn't yet heard the same stories of lives half-lived under selfishness, emotional or physical abuse, or mothers struggling to earn and support families fathers abandoned again and again from so many different women. I truly believed many of the supposed differences in strength and speed between the sexes were really a combination of girls being socialised not to try (to be comforted when they fail not pushed to try again) and biased observers seeing what they expected to see.

And then, fairly abruptly, I realised that a core element of my feminism is that men and women's minds fundamentally aren't really that different, it's a product of how society treats us and what that does to how we see ourselves.

And I realised that if I truly believed that, which I did and still do, how could I also believe that some men "really had women's minds"? It didn't make sense.

And I saw how the public voices of trans women and TRAs claimed to be "Feminist" but they weren't really focusing on any of the shit women deal with from men except the bits that involve sex - abortion rights, contraception rights, sex work. They weren't saying anything about the everyday misery so many women suffer, or the need for better protection for mothers when relationships break down. And they only seemed to care about MVAWG when it could be used as a counterargument to concerns about allowing male bodied trans women access to single sex spaces.

But I still regularly check in with my younger self - was she right? Am I seeing problems that don't exist? I'd love a world where men could be as glittery and pretty as women are supposed to be (and after all, in plenty of cultures they are) and women were given as much credibility and opportunities as men get by default - by denying trans identities are meaningful outside the trans person in question's own sexism am I working against that here?

And I always come back to what I said so many posts before: female people exist. Being female has consequences. You can't on the one hand say trans women can be women because it's nothing to do with being female then on the other say female people can't define themselves, their history, their experiences and their needs separately from trans women because we are all women together. The focus on what trans women need ignores what female people need.

Ok, that was a lot of words and kind of self indulgent. A medal for you if you actually read them.

The message I really wanted to give you is of course you should question yourself. Every single day. And you should always be asking "if I were on the other side what would I think and why would I think it, and would I have a point?". Because that's how you, and how I, and how everyone else, will learn and grow. And over time, if we keep doing this, there will be a new way forward that works for all of us.

Two terms they have introduced that we are apparently just supposed to accept:

Trans
Cis

Cis is something to do with the Alps/mountains. Trans is something to do with some doctor getting it wrong at their birth. Because sex gender is only observed, not innate. Apparently.

We are all so captured, even us terfs, that we accept the use of the term "trans".

I use 'trans' to mean 'people who call themselves trans'. That is the entirety of it.

@ThatOpalTurtle I really struggle with the concept that body modifications, hormones, dressing in assumed feminine styles, helps a person especially adult males, to resolve why they feel like they do.

And now the idea that you can be some kind of woman has been taken away and the female door has been firmly shut will make matters worse for all of you as you were always sold a lie.

What i want for you is a world that you can navigate comfortably and safely in.

that would be for me, being seen as a different kind of man whose respected, accepted and included by manly men, just like gay men should be accepted.

what should you do? Find your voice , find other men like you and band together to stop the madness, push back against the anti women narrative.

Contact Debbie Hatton, a man who is sort of on side with us (many may disagree)

or sit around bemoaning the situation, that is of the making of trans activists.

I speak only for myself as you may have noticed many women are far more angry than me, in the ways that their lives have been damaged by men and by this ideology.

@ThatOpalTurtle correction it is Debbie Hayton wrote a book called the Transexuals apostate, worth a read, he has a website i am sure if you mailed him he will contact you

Remember ladies, if 100 of us say we know every time if someone has a trans identity that doesn't count if one man disagrees. After all, he a man (who identifies as a woman) and therefore must know better than us. Also, if we want single sex spaces and a man can get away with using it without us daring to object then that's ok, as every women who feels upset or unsafe (or is actually unsafe) as a result doesn't matter. As long as the man is happy. That's basically the argument.
However, if you accept women as full human beings with rights, suddenly a tiny number of men with certain feelings aren't more important than all women, and the argument for allowing trans inclined men into women's spaces is lost.
And if you accept that most people put facts above feelings, and reality above fantasy then you can't argue that anyone should feel they have to accept this concept of gender identities.

I respect people's right to believe in God (or a god/multiple gods), but I don't have to change the way I think or speak to suggest any or all gods people believe in are real. That's part of the religious freedom we have in this country. In return those that believe are allowed to speak about it as true, whilst accepting that others don't agree. I won't state as fact that there are no gods - I can't prove it. It isn't a fact. It is my opinion and belief only.

Facts and truth aren't the same. I don't have to respect the view the Earth is flat. The facts have been proven otherwise. I find it strange that we are expected to respect gender identity when established biological facts prove it is wrong and everyone has one of two sexes (even if a tiny minority require additional medical tests to establish which, and that is only in the case of a tiny minority of the already very small number of people who have DSDs) and it can't be changed. Paperwork can be changed, but biological facts can't.

I use trans identifying males or men and trans identifying females or women.

because otherwise get confused because trans woman to me reads as woman who is transitioning so a trans man and I need to stop myself getting confused. Or it doesn’t make sense to me when I read posts. It takes a massive effort for me to read trans woman as “man who presents as a female”.

Capable of meeting your needs in mixed sex spaces without excluding and oppressing women?

Again.

Some women cannot use mixed sex spaces. It does not matter what the man looks like, feels like, what meds he's taken, he is making it mixed sex the moment he walks in.

I do not want to play a game of 'are you trying to deceive me into taking my clothes off in a situation I would not consent to if I knew'.

You're effectively making the same argument that so long as Giselle Pellicot was doped first and was unconscious what did it matter that she was being raped? She didn't know, right?

And this is all still red herrings. Who is going to stand at the door in this illusion of 'just inflict the men who might pass on unconsenting women and try to fool your way past their consent to meet your needs using them' and say who does and doesn't pass? Who's going to say no and deal with the rage of the ones who don't pass? If it's the gentle pretty androgynous bloke, it's the six foot four chap with the beard and the tutu as well.

No. You do not need to use non consenting women's bodies to meet your own needs, and that's what you are doing when you invade a single sex space.

Thank you for writing that.

I really struggle with the concept that body modifications, hormones, dressing in assumed feminine styles, helps a person especially adult males, to resolve why they feel like they do.
I am aware of the irony in what I’m about to say, but I think it’s one of those situations where you can’t understand it until you’ve experienced it yourself. I can see why you’d struggle to understand it as someone who feels like their body and role are their own. I personally can’t understand why anyone would want to transition from being a woman to a man because I don’t understand why anyone would want to be a man. Before transition I had a lot of gender dysphoria, but since transitioning and having reassignment surgery it is largely resolved. The way I’d describe it is that for most of my life it was like the person looking back at me in the mirror wasn’t me, but medically transitioning has changed my outward appearance to become the person I expect to see in the mirror. Sorry for the (I think) incoherent rambling, but it’s hard to explain

that would be for me, being seen as a different kind of man whose respected, accepted and included by manly men, just like gay men should be accepted
The idea of this is very hard for me to accept. I know that if I wasn’t male I wouldn’t be a trans woman, but the idea of being seen as any sort of man is horrifying to me.

I know I’ll never convince you I should be in your spaces. I’m just trying to explain how I’ve come to where I am now

Yip. This.

I made this argument on another thread. You’re trading a dangerous line once you start saying it doesn’t matter if women don’t know.

I KNOW.

and even if I don’t you don’t get to violate my consent or lack thereof like that

So why aren’t you campaigning for a fourth space? Why are you figuratively raping me all over again? Because that’s where it takes me when I hear a man on the other side of a door. Where I’m locked in and can’t get away.

why do you have the right to do that to me in contravention of the law?

@ThatOpalTurtle please could you give me a polite form of words to use if I encounter you in a woman’s single sex space and I want you to know that I’m unhappy with you being there?

@ThatOpalTurtle maybe you could think about talking to Debbie Hayton.

like you say i can not conceive of your issues.

i think you would find some solace in talking to other people in your position that have accepted they are not any kind of woman.

And what you might find is, if men like you band together and back women’s assertion of their rights, then maybe just maybe, there would be a better future for transexuals, but that is something that only you and others like you can do not me or other women.

There has been a war that we have not yet decisively won.

But we will, think of changing sides, stop being introspective look outside the window reach out as you have done, but try harder.

I’m really sorry you have that experience, and I truly hope my presence has never made anyone feel that way, but the people here are right, I can never know for sure so I need to remove myself from the situation. I know what it’s like to carry trauma from a violation, so I have no excuse

So why aren’t you campaigning for a fourth space? And why have you spent all day defending your supposed right to be there?

What would I like for male people with transgender identities?

I would like them to live without being persecuted for their identities but to also understand fundamentally and at all levels that they are not female people and therefore should make no demands, including linguistically, on people to treat them as being female in any way. However, I, like others would applaud any male with a transgender identity who normalised that they are just another version of manhood.

If additional facilities and provisions are needed for them, they should campaign for those. There is certainly enough people focused on supporting this group now that I think that this could be done.

Dexter ("the loveable serial killer") vibe 😬

Off to google the lyric 👀🤷‍♀️

I have a few questions about what you would like.

Should gender reassignment be a protected characteristic?
Should I be allowed recognition through the gender recognition act?
How should I refer to myself?

You know what I would like to know?

If this all encompassing hatred of yourself as a man leads you to spend money on surgeries, take hormones forever, with all the attendant medical risks, upset women, over and over, and encounter awful harassment, why the fuck do you never see transwomen setting up loud and public campaigns to find a cure??

There was a discussion on reddit regarding sexed brains and whether it would change anything if they found out they didnt have a female brain after all. The answer was no, they would still transition.

Another where they discussed other solutions, again, the answer was no they still would transition.

Transition isnt a solution to a medical problem, its something they want to do, and they found a diagnosis to legitimise it.

What protections do you think anyone’s philosophical belief should have that they don’t already have I the UK?

What recognition exactly do you think your philosophical belief should have ?

If you are referring to yourself as anything that doesn’t reflect your material reality, why should society support your description? Ie. if you include any reference to female people in your description of yourself when you are not female, why do you believe society should accept that?

If you and others like you create a term that references you as being male and in no way references you are being female, great! Go for it.

However, female language is for female people.