"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 9

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov
Thread 7, 05-Nov to 11-Nov
Thread 8, 11-Nov to 16-Jan (last thread with the schedule and abbreviations)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital filed a legal case against their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses objected to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing was held between 20th October and 11th November and was live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have comprehensive information regarding this case on their substack, including archives of the twitter threads, lists of people involved and press releases.

At the time this thread was started, the judgment had not yet been published on the Courts website but was widely reported in the media that the NHS was found to have discriminated against the nurses, but the claims against Rose were not upheld.

And WH couldn’t find anyone else to interview about this landmark tribunal? No-one from Sex Matters for example?
Nuala was indifferent and disengaged in this interview with her colleague and starkly contrasts with how she gushed in the previous segment. WH is utterly infuriating!

Could female Unison members take Unison to court over these types of statements throwing women under the bus? Maybe a class action type thing (IANAL so obviously am not sure how this would work)?

Seems discriminatory to me.

I also saw an interview with the Darlington nurses in which one of them said she'd paid Unison dues for 35 years. I would have thought that it would be slam dunk to go to court to get that refunded given they failed to represent her in this case when asked. I'd crowdfund for that.

The Woman’s Hour approach to anything gender related exemplifies all that is bad about the BBC. It’s a disgrace.

I remember when Ed Balls interviewed Kathleen Stock. Quite different from today.

Given their coercive shitty abusive behaviour so far towards women who recognise reality, this is almost certainly true.

(which I take to mean that Rose should have been spoken to by management and should have been offered an alternative changing space - this was the solution they discussed a little earlier in the interview).

Or the Management could have called the male staff together and said that although Rose (tries to) identify as a woman he is still a biological male and that you must accept his presence in the male changing rooms.

It's really not complicated.

Agree totally, but women are supposed to be the answer to a male problem. As usual.

There are plenty of trans-identifying men who use the men's facilities and are fine. This is about straight men pretending to be women so they can ogle other women and get aroused by the thought of themselves as women, particularly when those women are forced to treat them as women.

I'm not so worried about Rose not being found to harass. As a pp said it's very hard to win a discrimination claim especially when it is he said / she said with no other evidence. The evidence shows that the trust believes Rose was acting lawfully.

The important thing is that single sex changing rooms are actually single sex. If that is the case, and a man enters it is very clear that he should not be there. If that had been the case here it would have been far easier to show Rose had been harassing as he shouldn't have been in there in the 1st place.

Some of it is about power and control.

You compel others to tolerate your presence in a changing room. You compel others to use the "correct" speech.

Someone was telling a story about a new junior member of their NHS team. A they/them. The elderly department head is struggling to remember to use the new NB name as opposed to the name on the staff list and the they/them keeps having to correct them. Luckily the they/them has XY chromosomes and is anxious rather than assertive, so unlikely to make a complaint as the Head of Department gets it wrong again. That said, in what other (legal) context would a new entrant get to control the actions of their bosses' boss.

That said, in what other (legal) context would a new entrant get to control the actions of their bosses' boss.

This tribunal showcased some appalling workplace behaviour inflicted on colleagues by a member of staff confused about their biological sex. It's wild read 😁

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5451419-employment-tribunal-finds-nb-does-not-meet-pc-of-gr

Definitely, it's work changing room full of same sex professional colleagues, not some random club toilet full of coked up maniacs 15 pints deep into a night out.

If one of the other men is giving Rose any issue in the male changing room, Rose should be able to complain to Rose's line manager or the facilities manager and have it addressed. Everybody deserves dignity when they're getting changed, definitely including poor old Rose.

If one of the other men is giving Rose any issue in the male changing room, Rose should be able to complain to Rose's line manager or the facilities manager and have it addressed. Everybody deserves dignity when they're getting changed, definitely including poor old Rose.

Was there any suggestion that such a thing had happened, though? I thought Rose had 'always' used the female facilities?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/5474328-parliamentary-petition-approve-and-implement-the-ehrc-guidance-on-meaning-of-sex-in-the-equality-act

I've just watched, and yes, it was sympathetic to the nurses. It's like people are waking up and realising that women have rights too.

Both presenters seem to think that a third space is an obvious solution in this type of scenario. They obviously aren't aware what TRAs view is on third spaces.

Was there any evidence during the hearing on the size, location and numbers of men using the male changing room? I can't recall any.

I think there was evidence that the female changing room was used by about 200 women? Not sure about the exact number but it was very substantial. Given that NHS staff are overwhelming female, the number of men using the men's changing room is probably a small fraction of that. I suspect it is largely empty most of the time.

As Bezmills says, not a nightclub toilet full of blokes off their faces. Or even a post match hockey club CR. Or was Upton the hockey player? So many men in women's changing rooms I get confused.

Yes, all the men working in the NHS will have been on diversity training, telling them to be kind, just like the women. They’re all DBS checked, mostly with professional registrations to keep intact. And yet asking men to be kind is never an option.

@CriticalCondition in the ruling it mentioned 300 female staff using the facility.

Thank you. Even more than I remember ed!

Lottie Miles was the hockey player. She mentioned in passing that she played hockey in a mixed team.

If I remember correctly, 'Rose' has not been using the female changing room for some time now, since April/May last year when Wes Streeting sent in some (male) head honcho nurse for the north east to sort it out.

So 'Rose' is changing somewhere if he's still working there, as I believe he is. Has he been beaten up? Has he become so depressed at being excluded from being with the girlies that he's plunged into a state of depression? In short, has the sky fallen in over Darlington? I think not. I expect he pulled on his big boy pants and got on with it

Yes, I know LM, a real woman not the pretendy kind, mentioned playing hockey and told the tribunal she didn't mind a trans person (note sex unspecified) in the CR. But I was thinking of the TIM in either the Sandie Peggie or Darlington case who had been a hockey player in a men's team. I think it was Upton.

Theodore Upton was the male hockey player.

I don't suppose anyone has a subscription to the Health Service Journal?

I've just seen a headline about Streeting sending an NHS England Director to investigate the trust, but I don't have access to read further.

Sorry, ignore me, my link didn't work 😕