Potential WI Schism

[Igneococcus]

I know there is WI thread but a cannae find it right now:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/c73091fd-d02e-4951-8866-3add883013cf?shareToken=8cfa38d472492bacc9f602cc068c4536

Had a go at doing it manually. Hope you don't mind

Good work! I shall wear that to the first meeting. I can hear it now:

“Otter, do you want to go to the pub?”

“Not tonight, sorry. I’m busy with CUNTS”.

Just gonna leave this here. It’s such an easy google to find so many news stories showing cis women being harassed and accused of being men, which is on the rise.
Please put this time and effort into fighting for harsher punishments for men in public spaces (all spaces) who are making the world unsafe for women. Less than 2% of rapes lead to conviction. Post separation abuse is rife in the court system. Of all the torment I and the women I love and care about have faced from men, not one of them asked us to call him a woman before he hit us, raped us, abused us. You’ll never make the world safer this way.

But if you let non cis men into female spaces, you have to let cis men in too. How will that make women safer? If non cis men are afraid of using male spaces because they are afraid of cis men attacking them, how will them sharing spaces with cis men and women make them safer?

You've got an absolute nerve mentioning the male Imane Khelif as part of your "defence".

@MooPointCowsOpinion No one ever thought twice about questioning whether the people in women’s spaces were women until men tried to shove their way in to them. And if we women want to make women’s spaces safer, we keep men out. All men. Even the ones who pop on a frock, change their names to Estelle and swear blind that being “biological” and believing that they’re women makes them “biological women”.

Stop being such a handmaid.

p.s. There’s no such thing as “cis”. There’s women (adult human females) and men (adult human males). HTH.

I think you meant your reply above to be to @MooPointCowsOpinion and not @Namelessnelly, who you quoted?

I think this is more of the practical conversations we should be having :) if we class trans women as men, and then want to include them in a predominantly female space, we probably do have to offer the space out to cis men. Yucky. Not appealing at all.
i think it makes more logical sense to class trans women as women, and maintain women only spaces that can then exclude cis men. These spaces can exclude problematic individuals as well, say a woman who makes every session weird by maniacally screaming about checking for cunts in an otherwise civilised setting, as well as any trans women who make it weird. A claus based on biological sex is hard to enforce and I don’t have a cheek swapping kit on me day to day, both sexes have breast tissue, trans men don’t always have penises I can check for, can’t go by hair length some women rock a cute pixie cut… a clause based on being able to remove members based on expecting them to be female (inclusive) and follow basic decorum seems to make more logical sense.

If my local WI wants to be more inclusive than your local WI, I don’t see why a judge should get to dictate how inclusive we want to be. It feels like both sides hate being forced to follow an ideology they don’t believe in, and we are all used to having more choice and freedom than this in this country.

I have a bit of a different view on the WI. I dont know what they offer in great detail, but does sex really matter in terms of what they offer, or does it matter because they describe themselves as the women's institute. If it is the former, then they should be single sex, if it is purely a descriptor, then they should be open to all comers, but should no longer fashion themselves as as women's institute, perhaps become the people who feel like women's institute (PFWI). What they can't do is have it both ways.

'i think it makes more logical sense to class trans women as women'

That is a complete falsehood. They ARE men as they are male.

I am so done with the lies. No male is a woman, however they identify, and this includes all male transexuals and transvestites.

I did indeed. Sorry for any confusion.

That really is one of the ickiest things I've ever read.

😍

Excellent job!

Thank you

🌹

Whoops, @MooPointCowsOpinion. You’ve jumped the shark with your Imane Khelif sadface post there.

Do better.

@MooPointCowsOpinion it might be time to put down the sherry

It is just not possible to make trans exclusionary spaces, you’re never going to win this. It’s the same as abortion rights in my mind. Religious zealots can try and stop all abortions and force everyone to believe what they believe, they can even take over governments and make it illegal, but all they are doing is removing access to safe abortions. Women will still have abortions, they just will be secret, and more dangerous.

You can be trans exclusionary in your own beliefs, you can even force those beliefs on others by influencing the courts and governments, but you can’t stop trans people from existing and the majority of people being trans inclusive. We will just have to be sneaky or clever about it. Like my WI can just have evenings that aren’t “official” and still have trans women at every meeting. Unless you come to our meeting and kill us all, you can’t stop it.

Better to engage with logic and reason than keep shouting check the cunts and hope to magic all the trans people away. There is no way forward that will please you, you cannot stop those of us who do not mind sharing our spaces with them from just carrying on and ignoring you entirely. Sorry if that comes across as rude, I don’t want you to feel irrelevant or desperate, but really we will just continue as we please.

A judge recently told a dear friend of mine that it was “six of one and half a dozen of the other” in a custody case where her ex husband had drugged and raped her repeatedly, as well as choked her and slammed her into a wall. Can we agree that women need protecting in more pressing ways perhaps?

We’ve already won. You’re just slow on the uptake.

I am not 'trans exclusionary'.

All females who identify as non-binary or as the opposite sex are included, and they very much count as 'trans', thank you.

Just stop with the lies. We all know that human beings can't change sex. You can have single-sex groups or mixed sex groups, but it is time to stop pretending that mixed sex groups are somehow 'single sex' if people pretend hard enough.

No-one here wants to kill you, so please cut out the hyperbole, too.

Most of this is absolute drivel.
Take your own advice and engage with logic and reason.
Transwomen are men.

Trans people aren't being stopped from existing, it's such a lazy argument. Do you only see trans identifying women when it suits you?

Im sorry to hear what your friend went through, it's horrific. But please don't use that case of male violence to pressure women into accepting men into their spaces.

Can you explain what the difference is between a "transwoman" and a "cis man"?

Yes, the suggestion that 'my dear friend's husband did a terrible thing to her, therefore, we need to let 'special' men into female single sex spaces' is an utterly moronic argument.

This: Unless you come to our meeting and kill us all, you can’t stop it.

....followed by this: Better to engage with logic and reason than keep shouting check the cunts and hope to magic all the trans people away.
....is just not the statement of a rational person.

And this: There is no way forward that will please you
...is just simply wrong.
We see a way forward that will please us very much and that's what we'll keep fighting for. It might not please you though. Oh well.

@MooPointCowsOpinion

"I think it makes sense to class trans women as women?" I am at a loss at how you came to the conclusion that that is the option that makes sense.

Question for you:

Before are identical triplets John, a cis man, Jayne a transwoman and Jax a trans age non-binary gender fluid therian they/them. Jax is a non-binary they/them on Mondays, alternate Wednesdays either a non binary man he/him or a non binary woman she/her, a cis man he/him on Tuesdays, a squirrel tufts/tufty at the weekends and a 6 year old me/me/me on Fridays and Bank Holidays.

Which one is which from the images below?

Can we agree that women need protecting in more pressing ways perhaps?

No, we can't. Women and their rights are under threat in both covert and overt ways, and both are linked. That poor friend of yours that was raped: she might find it traumatising to be in a rape support group with a trans-identifying-man, and if she specifically doesn't then others who have been in her position definitely will do so because woman have done so before them.