I wonder what the WI are going to announce on Woman's Hour in the next few minutes?

[nauticant]

Apparently it will be a matter of the greatest seriousness and sorrow.

Maybe they just don't want to upset your friend?

Maybe they don't want to upset you.

Maybe they are scared you'll kick off.

Maybe they couldn't care less.

Maybe you're the only one who knows you are entering a woman's space under false pretenses.

We'll never know.

But you took their right to choose and consent from them.

You turned their single sex book group into a mixed sex one.

Probably not. It always come down to money in the end.

I wouldn’t join a trans group because they’re usually incredibly depressing, but I wouldn’t invite her to a trans group because she’s not trans. You won’t agree with this and people will pile on, but I believe it’s possible for trans women to share experiences with women though living socially as a woman. In the same way a woman with masculine features who is precisely as male might be able to relate to a some trans women

I was worried about that and I’d never want anyone to be afraid of what I’d do if they rejected me.

OMG why do TW and TRAs always frame this in terms of how distressed women would be about the TWs' possible suicide attempts?

Don't you ever think about the women's distress at having a man in their single sex group?

But if this system was working for the WI- why don't they change their name to WI (rather than Womens Institute) and make it a mixed sex organisation

Also it’s debatable if the system was working for the WI. There have been PP telling us that they left WI due to the inclusion of men, others have told us they feared speaking out because the higher echelons were full on TWAW.

Why are they depressing?

Stonewall identifies as a human rights charity, their Governing Document provides them with ample scope to keep adding letters to their wifi code.
The WI's governing document, by contrast, confines them to women in most areas of their activities although AFAICT, they can still offer some of their courses to chaps.

Excellent- thank you.

I wonder which groups humans rights that Stonewall will look to bulldoze next, now they are losing the war with women and children.

..but I believe it’s possible for trans women to share experiences with women though living socially as a woman.

Could you explain to me what "living socially as a woman" entails, exactly?

I wouldn’t join a trans group because they’re usually incredibly depressing

Yeah, I bet they are. Why is that, do you think?

I believe it’s possible for transwomen to share experiences with women through living socially as a woman

Do ye, aye?

What kind of experiences would you as transwomen be sharing with real women?

I only attended one early in my transition, but it was mostly people talking about all their hardships and the negative things they’ve experienced. That hasn’t been my experience. I started to blend in early in my transition and I’ve been incredibly fortunate not to have have bad experiences, so it didn’t feel like a space for me.

Ahhh so you wouldn’t invite her because she’s not trans but you’ll happily join a women’s group even though you’re not a woman. Do you see how hypocritical that sounds? So what experiences do women and males with a trans identity have in common? You can’t know what it is to be a woman because, harsh as it may be, you are not one.

I'm one of these women with "masculine features" or at least the regularity with which I'm called "sir" would suggest so.
Of course I do not "relate" to trans-identifying men, we have nothing whatever in common, as evidenced by the fact that I don't go berserk, try to have the poor sod fired, or claim to be on the brink of self-slaughter & put out an e-begging bowl when someone calls me "sir",

@puppymaddness

Just one more thing (best Colombo impersonation). You have repeatedly described the current (post FWS) as being State Prohibition. This could not be further from the truth. EA2010 is a civil rather than criminal enactment. There are no prescribed punishments because it makes no attempt to define the relationship between the State and non-state actors in matters of Equality. These matters remain between individuals and duty holders and any reconciliation is left to the appropriate Court without any State involvement.

Any and every case stands on its own merits. In the case of the WI against some random bloke off the internet (sorry Mr 2 Cats), the WI sought expert legal counsel. The expert legal advice was that the current approach of allowing membership to trans identifying men while denying it to other men is unlawful under EA2010 and that the WI would lose any such legal challenge.

No State Prohibition, simply how civil law works.

One that comes to the top of my mind is being seen as less capable and being minimised by male coworkers

You are quite right many will not agree.
What does “living socially as a woman” even mean?
That’s your idea of “how a woman lives” I imagine?
Please at least have the grace to understand that you do not know what being a woman is, only what your idea of being a woman is from what you have observed.

I find it unbelievably offensive that you can assume you have any understanding of what it means to grow up female in the world.

I think you are over estimating the number of women 'with masculine features who are perceived as male', but they wouldn't share your experience, because they are actually female.

Jesus take the wheel!!!!!!!!

Did you honestly say in a previous post you were worried that people might be afraid to reject you because of what you’d do? Really? Maaaaate. Come on now.

Wow. I wouldn't worry - I don't think a pile on is necessary here. I keep rereading it in case I misunderstood it, but can't see that I have (do tell me if I have - I can live in hope...). But if not... The double standards, reliance on outward appearance, and denial of women's autonomy in favour of subjective male judgement and preferences really do speak for themselves. That's an extraordinary admission, and helpful to see laid out so explicitly. Your honesty is, at least, appreciated - it's far more meaningful and interesting than P's stuck-record rhetoric of imminent fascist takeover. 🙄

And you think you could add to women's lived experience of this, as though they didn't already know all about it?
How presumptuous.

A perpetually unanswered question. At least beyond merely sexist tropes like "wear skirts & makeup". 🙄

youre having a laugh aren’t you. Are you on the wind up? It’s 2025 mate, not 1955.

Double standards much?

No to her in a trans group because she's not trans, but you'll happily insert yourself into a woman's group despite not being a woman?

You can share experiences with women, but you cannot say that's because you are living socially as a woman.

You aren't living socially as a woman. You can never live as a woman because you are a male.

You are living as a man who wishes to be seen as a woman. And that's fine but you aren't a woman.

That could be because they think you're a woman and treat you as such.

Or it could be because they know you're male but don't think you're a "proper man" because of your presentation and that you are therefore inferior.

Or it could be because they think you're an idiot.