I wonder what the WI are going to announce on Woman's Hour in the next few minutes?

[nauticant]

Apparently it will be a matter of the greatest seriousness and sorrow.

What on earth are you talking about? I said nothing about suicide

I can't speak for others but here's my position.

I don't have a problem with men wanting to be women. I spent many years wanting to be a man.

I wear clothes from men's sections, so I can't complain if a man wears clothes from the women's section.

You've willingly probably worn a dress more times than I have in the past 53 years (it would need to be higher than 0 to beat me so not a high bar)

I am not afraid to tell a man in a woman's single sex space to fuck right off. Unless the man plans on actually murdering me he couldn't do any worse than what a man has done to me before.

I'm sure as hell not bothered about the social consequences.

What absolutely boils my piss though is when men decide to take my ability to consent away. This is what you do when you enter women's only spaces. You assume the women consent.

Stop assuming, do the right thing and stay out of women's single sex spaces. Past that I hope you live a happy, healthy and fulfilling life.

You can choose to tell your friend whatever you like. However the choice has already been made as to who can attend the book club - women.

As you’re a man it’s not a space to which you’re entitled. So as the saying goes, that’s a you problem.

Any discomfort you may experience with your friend does not entitle you to enter a female single sex space, where your male presence would cause discomfort.

And? So what?

You can give consent on behalf of women who do want to continue to exclude males from female single sex spaces? Can you? That’s what your ‘tra-la-la I don’t mind’ is attempting to do.

Luckily you don’t get to make the rules. I’m sure they’ll budge over for you in the Sisterhood meetings.

Why does your belief override all the women that are happy to have trans women in their groups? Before the Supreme Court reinterpreted the EA, it was possible to create groups that excluded trans women. I’m not saying it always worked that way, but it was possible. Why was that not good enough?

my experiences up to that point gave me no reason to believe to believe my presence would cause alarm

As a woman, seeing that is a very familiar thing, the experience of realising men don't know what it's like to be a woman, but think they know everything because they haven't stopped to consider that women could have their own perspectives and experiences outside of what men can know.

Women know an adult male, particularly an unknown one, is a potential danger, or may do something that is not in itself physically dangerous, but is upsetting (ogling, dominating, etc). This is partly instinctive. Part of keeping yourself safe is not letting on to the man that you identify him as a possible risk or are on your guard, because that may provoke him. Women not letting on to you if they are alarmed and even trying very hard to suppress it and cover it up does not mean they were not alarmed or uncomfortable.

There is a peace and relaxation and camaraderie and shared experience (I mean the full experience, not just some bloke patronising us at work or being wolf-whistled, but the shared understanding of having female bodies and female physical experiences) that comes with being with just women. (Of course women can be aggressive and dangerous and I'm not denying that, but it's rare and we know another woman isn't generally packing the strength a man is.) That is destroyed by a man being there. Some women might genuinely not mind that, but them not appearing to mind doesn't tell you anything.

I very much do mind. If I want to be with just women, that's what I want. On top of that I don't enjoy a male doing a stereotyped imitation of my own real experience, appropriating it and claiming to be what I am. It's rude, to say the very least, and in any other context (ethnicity, height, disability, age) that would be clearly understood.

This is why I completely stopped going to anything "women only" because I know such things attract TW and I couldn't face the loss of what I had sought out and not being able to have that peace. Not because I hate anyone or am "anti-trans" but because being a woman is real and being with just other women is sometimes what I want or need. So not only do the reactions of the women there not tell you anything much - you're also not even seeing the women who aren't there because you might be.

But you didn’t ask these women did you? You just turned up. And you’ve admitted you know people would be worried about saying no if you kicked off. Whickph implies you know people can tell you are not a woman. Why not join a mixed sex book club? You’d be welcome there.

I meet a nice bloke in the pub. Can my friend consent to him shagging me on my behalf?

Why not join a mixed sex book club? You’d be welcome there

We all know the answer to that one.
TW only ever want to invade women's single sex spaces. They're never interested in mixed sex spaces.
Funny that.

Because TRAs terrorised any group that they considered to be TW exclusionary. Having some TW inclusive and some single sex groups/services wasn’t good enough for them. They wanted all women’s spaces and services to include TW. Take up your complaints with them not women who just want our own rights respected

And the SC did not reinterpret the EA. They clarified what it had always meant. Again, take your complaints up with orgs such as Stonewall who pushed for organisations to “get ahead of the law”.

Validation validation validation is what is needed and you get none of that in a book group that Mary, Sue Steve and Jonathon are at because then they are just another body at the book group and not a woman in a woman's book group.

The SC ruling clarified the existing law, it did not reinterpret it.

I don’t have a ‘belief.’ I simply know that female single sex spaces are for females, not males. I therefore don’t expect any men to be present. I also don’t expect other women to try & foist upon me what IS a belief - that men can change into women.

I didn’t know anything for sure. I knew it was a possibility, but in my case I didn’t think it was likely because of my experience. My experience is that people see me as a woman or everyone is just being incredibly kind to me and get it right all the time.

Why do you know that? Do your gender critical beliefs inform that?

So you didn’t care. Wow! Women are just support humans to you aren’t they?

No. The law does.

Well I would advise that going forward you don't assume that everyone sees you as a woman, because the vast majority don't and won't. Some woman just won't mind. The vast majority though will either be being kind or scared shitless of being sacked or classed as a bigot on social media.

Going forward remember even if a woman invited you she can't consent on behalf of other women.

Now the SC have clarified the meaning of the word woman women are back in a position where if they catch you say in a changing room or toilet meant for women only they can potentially get you arrested for sexual harassment and voyeurism. And you won't get away any longer with saying but I thought it would be OK because I think I'm a woman and some women were fine with me there.

Do The right thing and stay out.

I do care. As I said before, if I thought my presence would be an issue, I wouldn’t go. And my friend invited me so she obviously thought I’d fit into the group. I’m not attending for validation, I’m there because I want to discuss books

It's a biological fact that human beings cannot change sex, as you well know.

Why do I know what a woman is? Is that what you mean? Why would you think I wouldn’t know?

You presumably think you know what a woman is because you’re living your life thinking everyone thinks you are one, or are perhaps just being kind.

Everybody knows and has always known what a man and a woman is. It’s truly the most cringe worthy attempted gotcha. You’re the man claiming to be a woman, which is the only reason this faux question has become fashionable.

Women are telling you your presence is unwanted and we don't consent.

If you really care you will never set foot in a women's single sex anything.

Do you really care though?

Some women are saying that on forum specifically for people with your beliefs. You don’t speak for all women and in real life most people are live and let live

You are missing the point 1000 women consenting does not override 1 woman's NO.

I do not consent. Other women cannot consent on my behalf .

If you really cared you'd understand that not all the women who you cross paths with would be happy to have you in their spaces and you wouldn't go in them.

Are we done yet?

I think you will find that most people don’t give a shit what you do until you start to encroach on the rights of others. Stay out of women’s single sex spaces.