Survey on culture in the UK - 'trans rights' questions

[ArabellaSaurus]

New survey

19% of people say 'trans rights have not gone far enough' in the UK.
39% say 'trans rights have gone too far'.

That's a really big change in the past five years.

'The proportion who say transgender rights have gone too far in the UK has more than doubled since 2020, from 17% to 39%, though overall there is still no public consensus on the issue, with 19% now saying transgender rights have not gone far enough, 27% saying they’ve gone as far as they should, and a further 15% not giving an opinion.
The proportion of people who say transgender rights have gone too far has doubled among all age groups – even 16-24s, where one in five (19%) now feel this way, compared with around one in 10 (9%) in 2020. However, young people are still more likely to say transgender rights have not gone far enough (36%).'

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uks-sense-division-reaches-new-high-culture-war-tensions-grow-study-finds

Article:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/growing-number-of-britons-think-trans-rights-have-gone-too-far/

@Gnasher1981 Are you ever going to answer my question? I think actually considering it would give you some insight into what a lot of us believe. You say you want to learn more but that doesnt seem to be true.

We aren't "anti-trans". We are anti-men-in-women's-spaces.

One thing I do know: she won't be a rapist and she can't get anyone pregnant. Also, if she tries anything, another woman would have a sporting chance in most cases of being as strong as she is.
Are you arguing for the abolition of all single sex spaces on the grounds that "women are as dangerous as men" (which is nonsense)? Either way, the special pleading on behalf of transwomen is irrelevant. They have the male physical advantages. Most of them keep their tackle. A minority of them behave badly towards women in the same way that a minority of men behave badly towards women. There's no valid reason to make an exception in their favour.

Apologies, I've had quite a lot messages regarding this sbject and I may have missed your question.
What was it?

So, how much fuckwittery is on this thread now?

Women have testosterone too, so it 'cannot be' harmful to women - meanwhile women on this board (who have now been categorised as 'anti-trans') know just how much testosterone women have naturally (even those in the high range) vs male people.

Then this leads into 'women abuse too'... all while ignoring the fact that the premise of safeguarding is not that any process can provide 100% protection, but will minimise the harm that female people face. And without male levels of testosterone any any stage of male puberty, female people are considered to be generally safer in female single sex spaces with other female people, even in another female person IS stronger than them. Because by risk assessment that weaker female has greater chanced in escaping from a 'strong' female person' compared to any person who has gone through any male puberty.

And did I also see a claim that women on this board hold views that do not reflect the majority of the population in the UK? Well... gosh.. here is the tracker from YouGov on single sex provisons, I would like to know where the opinions of the majority of those on this board that support prioritisation of sex over gender identity deviates from this below:

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed 27 [16] 12% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 14%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 25%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 17%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 58%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 25%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 29%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 18%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 55%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 28%
Don't know 26 [25] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

No surgery question was asked in 2018

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 19%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 63%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 17%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 23%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 60%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 19%
Don't know 27 [25] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

And finally:
This question was also not asked in 2018

Do you believe that allowing transgender women to use spaces reserved for women, such as women's toilets or changing rooms, does or does not present a genuine risk of harm to women? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024

Does not present a genuine risk of harm 39 [32] 25%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 14%

Does present a genuine risk of harm 32 [39] 55%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 23%

Don't know 29 [29] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Transgender_study_2024.pdf

The Trans community IS accepted.

Ohhh, again you mean not accepted into the ladies toilets.

I see. Same old, same old

Yeah, that's the same thing in this case.

It isn't 'anti trans '. It is 'anti males pretending to be women going into single sex spaces reserved legally for women'.

5nmol is about twice the amount that the average woman produces.
Which begs the question where do they get the allowable numbers from?

So men are more likely than women to say "enough of #bekind"?

Looks like our latest community disruptor ought to go talk to his fellow men instead of haranguing women. I look forward to seeing @Gnasher1981 on Pistonheads, trying to bring his fellow men into line.

We dont hate trans people. We think they need to be helped and cared for based on well-researched medical evidence. No one here cares if I man wants to wear and skirt and call himself Susan. What we object to as women is our hard-won rights (and dont kid yourself there is sexual equality yet) and vulnerable women are being caused direct harm by the magical belief that men can change sex just by saying so and therefore have the right to enter womens single sex spaces. If you actually are interesting in listening to womens views then please hear what we are saying. We dont hate trans people. We just know that no one can change their sex and so ALL men need to keep out of womens single sex spaces.

No thought at all for the transmen then!

Gosh I'm shocked...

Where is the 'anger' that you are referring to?

Is it anger at male people who make the conscious choice to access female single sex provision? Any single sex provision, be it toilets, changing rooms, refuges, health care, rape crisis centres, prisons, sports, Women's officer roles, or being included in any accolade intended to encourage female people?

Or do you just think that women are angry generally on this board?

No because we actively welcome trans men in womens spaces because they are biological women.

That was the rounded up upper boundary for PCOS if I remember correctly. I will go back and find the upper range.

Experience tells me that "in this case" is meaningless. There is no case in which women are allowed to defend our spaces without being accused of being "anti-trans".

Everyone screencap and bookmark the comment I'm quoting.

A man has admitted in writing that he considers women's rights to male-free spaces to be "anti-trans".

Ah, apologies that I got my assumption wrong.

OK so you're a male (your sex) who identifies as a man (your gender identity).

Yes, I'm aware women have naturally occurring testosterone, some more than others (but always within a female range). I'm also aware that some people believe that it's beneficial for women to use synthetic testosterone during perimenopause and menopause. However, I'm also aware that this view isn't shared by the medical profession and that there is not a lot of research into the risks and benefits of using it. There are plenty of threads on MN which discuss this.

Well it sure as hell wasn't by looking at the levels found in women so either they went we'll double them and add a bit incase they are any outliers we are unaware of or the they chose a level men could reduce their levels too.
I'm sure someone out there will know what levels trigger doping bans in female athletes because I fairly confident it will be well below the 10nml that they were happy to use to include men as men.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).

5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Plus this discusses the range for female people without testosterone elevating health conditions as being 0.1–1.7 nmol/L.

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^
The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes
“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus that Hoovlet post with handy charts in the tweet
https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

I have been in many unisex toilets and there have been zero problems

I've never been mugged for my phone. Clearly, there is no phone robbery problem. If I use your logic.

Consider why there is "anger on this forum"

Some men like yourself come here to mansplain trans to us and never actually listen

Except that it isn't.

Although TRAs will disagree MN is generally trans people exist and as long as they don't take our rights away can do what they like.

The problem is that TRAs and others are trying to remove women's rights to appease a very small minority of people.

Remember when Thomas was the NCAA number 1 women's swimmer?
That affected every collegiate swimmer in the USA.
That Thomas was known to be naked in the women's locker room also had an affect on those women and that isn't just about being sexually assaulted but about infringing on their privacy and dignity.

I've had an idea @Gnasher1981

Send your mum, sisters, nieces, female cousins, female in laws to a ladies public toilet.
Separately or in pairs would be good.

Then send in a few transwomen that you don't know, but "believe" are transwomen.

Wait outside for 15 minutes, see how you feel.

Be honest. Remember you have absolutely no idea who these transwomen are. How do you feel?

I have PCOS. Its offensive to suggest I'm somehow less of a woman because I have a condition that affects my OVARIES. It also probably contributed to me having breast cancer. I've also had a mastectomy. That doesnt make me less of a woman or non-binary either, just in case anyone cough is confused.

It's the sheer arrogance.

Men could come over and listen to women's reasonable concerns but no it's all about sticking up for the boys when it comes down to it.