"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 5

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct, TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager

Well that’s not women’s problem is it? He shouldn’t have been using the female CR in any case. How about all those allies who were so supportive of him also use the unisex Car with him. No better way to show solidarity right? That way people needing SS have their space, those women who will happily change in front of men can show their support and everyone is happy. Unless of course, those claiming they’d happily change in front of men were not exactly being truthful…..

Sorry if this counts as a derail but I had to delurk to say this. It's not possible to pass in the workplace, and therefore be outed.

It's definitely possible to pass in a curated tiktok video, or still images in a magazine (the Glamour models were very convincing). But two things are impossible to disguise for more than a few minutes at a time and that's the male gait and the male voice. It's possible to disguise these briefly but not for hours every day. Even MTF trans celebrities, with all the time and money and resources they have, can't do it.

Male and female legs are fundamentally different: we have an angle between our calves and thighs that men don't. When we wear high heels, the gait is distorted so it's possible to disguise the male gait in high heels, but you aren't wearing those as a hospital nurse.

The male voice can be almost disguised in falsetto, or by whispering, but again that can't be maintained for more than about half an hour at a time. Again not possible in a long hospital shift.

It's just a myth that needs quashing really, that TWs have been passing around us without us knowing. It's not possible even with the very expensive surgeries available to celebrities

I was thinking Mel Smith.

Just to be clear - not that I think "passing" in the workplace is a worthy goal to aim for anyway, it's basically trying to deceive people about what sex you are, including colleagues and patients. But my point is just whether it's possible, and it isn't.

@MyShyOchreTiger

So what if it is outing? There is no right to keep your sex secret. Patients have a right to know your sex, as a pp said, so colleagues have to know. Your colleagues also have a right to privacy from the opposite sex. Men shouldn't be changing with women in the first place. If they have been getting away with it for whatever reason, shame on them. No more. If other people put two and two together when he starts changing somewhere else, that is his problem. Choosing one of the Unisex spaces that already exist in the first place would be the best option for any man who really thinks he passes, or can't bear to use the men's facilities. The only facilities he must not use are the women's. It's so utterly selfish to insist that women must be embarrassed, or anxious, or re-traumatised to save you embarrassment or even anxiety. It's their problem, not the women's.

That's if we're even talking about cases of gender dysphoria and not fetishism.

Yes.

Yes, I thought that.

That's always struck me as odd, because how can you build friendships and good working relationships on deception? What's wrong with saying 'I am a man who's chosen to live as a woman' and respecting people who want privacy for changing? It seems to me you'll be far more likely to get it in return.

Yes, Upton tried to put on a lady voice in court, but it kept slipping.

It has taken me an hour to catch up from yesterday. Firstly, I would like to thank the wonderful women who are providing the updating of the TT tweets. I feel so sorry for the nurses and anger towards the managers/HR etc. at the trust, for prioritising the feelings and desires of one man over dozens of experienced nurses. The fact that Rose will probably not be called as a witness, seems to me to be incredible and reinforces my view that he is being protected at all costs.

Agreed. I'm not familiar enough with the sex by deception legislation, but when it comes to changing rooms, and therefore access to people in a state of undress, there seems like there should be something in there about that. I know there's voyeurism, etc, but I don't know if there's anything specific about this sort of scenario.

Either way, if it was me, I wouldn't be able to continue any sort of friendship with them.

I think the reason some people believe trans women can pass as female is because, up to now, many women who have encountered one in a single sex space have been too polite, or intimidated, to call them out and have just found a work-around. This leaves them thinking that no-one has noticed🙄

Attitudes are changing however and this is partly because of the increasing demands from the TRA lobby that they are entitled to invade these spaces.

@MyShyOchreTiger I was ignoring that argument - but since you are determined to go there Rose could be upset about the poor trans people and therefore making a point of sharing their changing room. It isnt outing. But clearly Rose, Upton and many men who want to be seen as women either make no effort or are much less effective than they believe. So there may be a unicorn somewhere but it certainly is not the Rose's and Uptons of this world. Displaying your tackle in holey boxer shorts does make it difficult to "pass".

The heavily filtered and photoshopped images some of them use on social media can be contrasted with the real life photos. They know they dont pass or they wouldnt doctor the images.

Could I just add to this the fact that I'd be more inclined to be kind to people who were kind to me? I'm not noticing anyone feeling sorry for the women who have been caught up in these cases or thinking about the other women who've quietly self excluded because they can't afford to do it. Instead, I'm remembering the FWS team who the media tried to guilt about them not feeling sorry for the people who'd been proved wrong.

You get what you give in this world.

I came across a report of some research about people who use face filters etc, it was years ago now and I can't remember where or what or who. But the bit that stuck was that it was found that people who use them can come to believe that the filtered version is the real version, which means that they simply stop seeing themselves as they really are not just on screen but in their own minds.
I've often wondered how much that influences the "you can't tell argument", and how on earth the spell is kept up when the men who pretend to be women open their mouths and hear their own voices.

And I have in my minds eye one who went on Mastermind years ago and the way he walked to The Chair and sat in it. 🙄

The important thing to remember about these arguments is that they are wrong.

Employers don't have a burden of proof or need an equality impact assessment to make a changing room single sex and exclude people of the opposite sex.

It is established legal fact, as well as common sense, that privacy and dignity when changing are legitimate aims, and that single sex facilities are a proportionate means of achieving that (and the only means).

The full mirror is that the reason employers would need to prove the need and assess the impact for allowing in members of the opposite sex is not because they would need to do these things to exclude them, but precisely because they don't.

Can't remember who, but a PP said they wouldn't mind RH giving evidence in private as long as TT covers it. That won't happen. Anything private - like the discussions they've had in camera so far,l - would mean no press and no TT.

I find the "passing" interesting. My DH and I are both in our late 70s (not sure if this is relevant, or not). I am almost instantly aware if I come across a TiM, he hasn't a clue, although when I say something he invariably agrees with me. It's inbuilt for women to recognise potential risks re men, OTOH men have never had that problem, so just look at surface things.

I'm so glad that things appear to be going the way of GC people and our young people will be protected.

Where is your evidence that "everyone already knows?" In general not this case with Rose.

Obviously some people won't know someone's physical attributes yet.

Some people might not know my height or hair colour, but they will as soon as they see me.

This is exactly the same for sex.

The only way for someone's sex not to be outed is the same as for their height not to be outed - they'd have to just not physically reveal themselves at all. (Maybe wear a "masked singer" costume everywhere?).

If any trans person wants to not be "outed", they will have to commit themselves to not being physically present - remote working.

If someone accepts a job that requires being physically present, then they have to accept that people will see them. It they can't handle that, it's not everyone else's problem.

Interesting @NUFC69 My DH clocked the TiM on Mastermind yesterday instantly but it took about 15 minutes of Only Connect before he spotted the TiM on that.

I'll C&P TT this morning for a while once we get started.

Thought it might be useful to post the abbreviations TT use for those who don't have access to X as the posts I C&P can be more difficult to follow if you don't know the abbreviations:
[Comments in italics are mine]

TT

Abbreviations:

C/Ns - Claimants - the Darlington nurses
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for Claimants
MP - Michael Phillips, solicitor for claimants
PS - Pavel Stroilov, C’s solicitor, preliminary hearing
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust

SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
J/REJ - Regional Employment Judge Robertson
EJ - Employment Judge
ET - Employment Tribunal
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse [RH believed to be an operating department practitioner, not a nurse]
DMH/H/Hospital - Darlington Memorial Hospital

The Claimant Nurses:
KD - Karen Danson
BH - Bethany Hutchison
CH - Carly Hoy
JP - Jane Peveller
MG - Mary Annice Grundy
TH - Tracey Hooper
ST - Sharen Trevarrow
LL - Lisa Lockey

Other names:
CG - Claire Gregory, Ward Manager
SS - Siobhan Sinclair, Housekeeper & Well-being officer, at DMH, now retired SW - Sue Williams, HR at Trust
TA - Tracy Atkinson, HR at Trust
AT - Andrew Thacker, Director of Workforce and Organisational Development DP - David Purdue, Joint Regional Chief Nurse for North East and Yorkshire
GH - Gill Hunt, Interim Joint Regional Chief Nurse for NHS England in North East and Yorkshire

ST - Stephen Twist, Darlington Trust’s Audit and Governance Committee, an elected Public Governor
RS - Professor Richard Scothon, Chairman of Trust
AM - Andrew Moore, Head of Workforce Experience at Trust
JR - Jody Robinson
SW - Sue Williams, Human Resources Business Partner

More Abbreviations:
TG - Transgender
TW - Transwoman
CR/CF - Changing room or changing facilities
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
WS - Witness Statement
WA - Whatsapp
CLC - Christian Legal Centre
SEAL - Surgical Elective Admission Lounge
DSU - Day Surgery Unit
EQA/EA -Equality Act 2010

This will be Day 10 of the tribunal

I think there are a couple of errors in names, Sue Williams appears twice for example and I think one of those should be Sandra Watson; perhaps @Justabaker can correct.

Here we are again. Your daily housekeeping reminder, which may be particularly important if/when RH gives evidence this week. Please can online observers sit on their hands until a break for any comments not covered by TT.

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

(the next thread is cued up and ready to go)

I have been struggling to explain in my head the "Rose has been using the F CR for years and nobody has complained" angle, and I know the J asked specifically about shifts, so could this be right:

• "nobody has complained in 4 years" according to Tracy Wainright and others in theatre team

• Rose came to hospital from Uni, already "as a woman" and taking estrogen

• He keeps his head down with surgery work mates in female changing room

• theatre team and day team have different shifts, use changing room at different times

• At some point he and his partner decide to "try for a baby", he goes off female hormones

• with testosterone rushing through his body Rose starts looking and feeling more manly

• He begins to see the female changing room in a different light

• Testosterone (with those sexy sexy vibes) start influencing his actions

• So he uses in the CR when the day shift are there to see what he might see

• Day shift are taken aback and leave or don't change, so his testosterone addled brain induces him to chivvy them along, "come on, get changed already"

• theatre staff continue to support him, line managers struggle, upper management mostly don't care, won't act, because policy

• Day team complain, Tracy Wainright and others say "Rose has been using the female CR for years!"

I think with testosterone rushing through his body Rose starts looking and feeling more manly is people fooling themselves to explain away a sense of something like cognitive dissonance.

You are correct. I mispoke. My memory stretches back to the time before there were any ODAs when what we had were called Theatre Technicians.