"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 5

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct, TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager

Is it up to Rose, assuming they want him to testify, does he decide whether or not to appear? If I were in his big shoes, I'd see no benefit to myself in getting on the stand. It's not like Fife where Upton was one of the respondents. Sure, Rose might be able to help out the Trust and the folk on his side by appearing. However that might not be something that would appeal to his nature. He's likely to be out of the ladies CR soon, assuming he isn't already. Nothing he says on the stand will change that. So why would he put himself through that if he doesn't have to? There's no benefit for himself in doing that.

Can't wait to see it!

Love it! a fitting finale
It would be an amusing form of protest

I'm not sure that Rose is irrelevant. If I'm understanding correctly, there are two 'arms' to the Claimant's position.

1. There was a man in the changing room and the Trust did nothing to change that.
2. The nurses told the Trust that the man in the changing room was sexually harassing them and they did nothing to protect them.

I might be wrong, but I think 2. makes the culpability of the Trust increase, and therefore, knowing they are likely to lose, it's in the Trust's interests to minimise their loss by disproving, or reducing the impact of, 2.

Their problem is that so many people are saying that 2 is true, that if the tribunal finds that 2 is true, they then actually have to do something with the HCPC and Rose.

Quite. It's one thing having legal recourse to say no men in women's spaces.

It's a different thing altogether for the general public to realise that for many men it's largely a fetish.

Message from Darlington Nurses on X re doing a spot of gardening…

https://x.com/DarlingtonUnion/status/1985408964989771820

Being ‘outed’ is such a misdirection. Actual passing transwomen are incredibly rare, especially in the actual flesh.
To pass you would have had to miss male puberty and be small etc. which is rare and won’t happen going forward.
Most these men identify as an adult, in jobs already, so everyone knows anyways.

The roses have been fertilised.

The Isla Bumba special!

Happily fertilised.

Carrot planted 🥕

Also digging for victory.

I can't seem to donate without leaving a £10 tip which I'm not willing to do - anyone know a work around?

On the webpage there is a slider under the suggested tip, which you can move to the left to reduce or remove it.

🥕 likewise.

Seeds have been provided.

@MyShyOchreTiger It really isnt outing. There was no gender neutral area before so anyone using it can claim to be showing solidarity with trans colleagues if it's room for multiple people or just liking privacy if it's a single space. And that ignores the everyone knows already argument.

He looks like Bill Bailey.

But not as nice natured, obviously!

This "outing" business is really annoying. It's clear from the witnesses that everyone knew that Rose is a man claiming to be a woman. So he could not be outed by being directed to a gender neutral changing room. This happens so often; it's part of the coercive nature of trans ideology. Everyone else is wrong, no matter what they say or what language they use, or what policies they put in place, unless they do as they are told. Because trans doesn't stand up when questioned.

Where is your evidence that "everyone already knows?" In general not this case with Rose.

I think in some cases yes it will be outing.

Especially when someone suddenly stops using women's facilities and seems a bit upset.

Sure they could can claim another reason but that doesn't mean people wouldn't guess correctly.

Especially if they did have physical characteristics that looked slightly masculine.

In the circumstances of NHS staff, the sex of your colleagues shouldn't be a secret anyway as patients have the right to ask for staff of their sex or chaperone of their sex for intimate procedures.

Even receptionists commonly change into uniforms at hospitals for infection control. Radiographers... probably others who aren't even directly treating patients.

How's this for a simple solution. An 'inclusive' changing room for people who don't mind stripping off in front of biological males and another single sex room for those who do.

A biological male has certain very distinctive features, so unless all these changing rooms have cubicles, no one will 'pass'. People are simply too polite to mention it.

I'm sure you're familiar with the process by which drugs are identified as cost effective and life and mobility are effectively rationed. The majority of hospital staff are there because they want to help the sick, so I wonder how they feel about potentially spending so much for such a tiny minority. Somehow, I'm not sure NICE would pass it as being 'best value' or whatever the shiny wrapper for 'you could be helped but we're not going to' is this week.

You could see that (and participate in) at my Scottish dancing group most weeks for only £4 and we've got live music too, this includes a break for refreshments (tea/coffee and biscuits). We basically do an interpretive dance version of Darlington hospital HR department every Wednesday evening.