"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

Absolutely correct. This is at the heart of all of this.

AT - there’s an assumption here that everything I did was to cause harassment. That was never my intention.

No, the assumption is that you are incompetent at best and captured at worst.

Good grief what DOES cross this man's mind at work all day?!

This ☝️

..the Workplace Regs aren’t relevant here. They’re about provision of facilities by an employer, they don’t deal with who uses them.

They are relevant. Separate male and female changing and sanitary facilities are mandated. If anyone can use any facilities, they are not separate male and female facilities.

There's FAFO but in his case the FA stands for 'does FUCK ALL'.

The zeitgeist was that TWAW, their biological identity was irrelevant, they didn't even need a GRC, they were women because they said so.
So they were entitled to use the women's CR because they 'are' women. Because they say so, and it would be transphobic to question that in any way.

I'm just highlighting the corrosive nature of adopting TWAW - against all common sense and scientific evidence - as a policy, and what a mess it has caused in so many organisations.

NF - email from Richard Scothern (sp? chairman of trust) forwarding an email from Stephen Twist (a governor) July 2022. Please read what Mr Twist says

NF - what meeting Twist refers to?
AT - council of governors. Possibly at these if any workforce issues. Not attending all.
NF - Mr Southern mentions a probability this issue may impact on H & S and risk assessment. You would have seen a governor was raising the question of a risk assessment re application of trust policy.

Do the persons responsible for completing a risk assessment have any training on what it means and who and what they need to consider?

I am struck, anew, by the layers of governance, management, administration in an NHS Trust. So much oversight that no one seems to be responsible for anything.

I thought for a while it was the Rapture. And not a moment too soon.

NF - an issue specifically raised of H & S. Did you commission a report or review ?
AT - no

NF - letter from Ms Dodsworth references ongoing legal dispute and provide single sex CR without delay. The current arrangements outweigh national guidance. Issue raised unless single lockable rooms then not compliant.

AT - there’s an assumption here that everything I did was to cause harassment. That was never my intention.

It caused harassment because you (both in your personal actions and as the Trust representative) didn't take sufficient care to ensure it didn't have that affect, you numpty!!

And "I didn't mean it" is the cry of every seven year old that has been caught doing something daft.

So, when they produced the trans policy no one did any research into the workplace regs? Also still haven't heard anyone mention consulting legal.

This H&S hole AT has dug is so deep the sunlight is a mere glimmer way above his head.

🎶Don't know much about H&S
Don't know much about legal 🎶

“…it wasn’t my intention..”

why does everyone nowadays think that’s a get out of jail free card?

Dealing with this at the moment at work - albeit in a different area - “it wasn’t our intention to completely change your conclusion by rewording your report and not telling you” what am I supposed to say - “oh, ok then, as long as it wasn’t your intention, there’s no issue that a bunch of bobbins got sent to the customer with my name on”

ahem. Sorry. Touched a nerve.

This is absolutely true. So many involved but absolutely no accountability. If things get really gnarly just have another service redesign and give everyone a new job title. Obvious really 🤦🏼‍♀️

He's so beligerent.

AT - RCN interpretation of the guidance yes. Would follow up after the RCN congress. That didn’t happen because of sharing of this letter with the media. Dodsworth said can I share this with Bethany I said yes.

Then I learned the RCN had shared the letter with Bethany. I understand Ms Dodsworth was not happy .
NF - so that conversation didn’t happen and nothing else did.

To be fair-ish, all NHS “transitioning in the workplace” type policies will have come, largely, from on high. Individual trusts or groups of trusts tweak the wording, but because they were told that this is what the policy must be, most do not appear to have consulted anyone before putting the policy into practice.

AT is basically saying that he did nothing with the relevant and critical information about the law because he was fully occupied with the media interest around it because it was leaked.

Was he not saying earlier that he didn't know certain information because that was in different domain, that of NHS Comms?

Yes, funny that, isn't it 🤔

We got full training on completing RAs at my work (public sector but not NHS). H&S manager reiterated frequently that we were personally responsible (ie us, not him), so we needed to complete RAs properly. And they were all kept on file, in case of a court case.

This is what I don't understand.

He's there - or should be there - as a witness for the trust giving evidence on behalf of the trust.

He's not giving evidence in his own personal capacity - so all this "It was before my time... I was on holday... it was a job share... I wasn't involved in that... I wasn't across the detail... " is completely irrelevant.

When asked something like how did the trust arrive at that policy it's no good saying "I wasn't involved in that", he needs to explain how the trust arrived at that policy, not "I dunno - nuffink to do with me guv'nor"